Hard News: Chaos in Kingsland
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I'm in the "can't breathe" camp, and that definitely does fit with the general message being conveyed by David at that point: I'm freaking the fuck out and having a bit of a panic attack. I also agree with the Supreme Court in ruling it inadmissible, if only for the fact that a jury could spend hours arguing about what, if anything, was said. It's incredibly subjective.
In any case, if David did do it, he's hardly going to confess to it under his breath in a 111 call. If he didn't, then there's nothing to confess. Either way, trying to admit it as evidence and pretend that it's a solid confession is just nonsensical. The human mind tries to make order from chaos, it's one of the things we do very, very well, but that makes us susceptible to finding hidden messages that aren't really there. Recognition of that risk was apparent in the ruling.
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Having worked as a transcriber for a number of years in the linguistics department at some university, I can understand why that was inadmissable. What I find far more interesting is Mr Bain's use of the present progressive tense (with non-continuous verb), in his initial description of events, namely;
"I came home and they're all dead."
As we know the progressive tense has 4 main uses;
1 the short term now "i am typing"
2 the long term now "i am living in Timbuktoo"
3 future plan "i'm watching a movie tonight"
4 complaint with 'always' or 'constantly' "why are you always wanking?"now the useage in this case would obviously be the first. 'i came home and they are all dead now/ i came home and now they are all dead'
His use of this over the more instinctive past simple
"i came home and they were all dead"
is either
a) a subconscious confession
b) fearing that he would tremor on the 'w' he chose it consciously supposing people would assume people make these kinds of temporal grammar errors in times of extreme shock
or
c) an honest to goodness grammar blunder.
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His syntax was mildly confused when he spoke after the trial too. The words don't come out the right way for some of us when we're put on the spot.
And if you think he said "I shot the prick" you think he is guilty of at least one murder. How on earth has he concealed this from his father figure, Joe Karam?
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It's incredibly subjective.
Wishful hearing at best. I'm kind of baffled they even thought they could get that admitted.
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His syntax was mildly confused when he spoke after the trial too.
You mean Joe Karam lets him open his mouth? :)
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I am clearly very suggestible.
When I first listened to the tape, having been prompted to hear "I shot the prick", that's exactly what I heard. Now, having read the comments here, I unmistakably hear "I cannot breathe."
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I'm kind of baffled they even thought they could get that admitted.
A last ditch attempt to justify the the whole sorry episode?
I am not going to go either way in terms of Bains guilt or innocence, I'll leave that to the jury who spent a considerable amount of time listening to both sides of the argument.
However, if Bain were the culprit he has already done 13 years and "paid his debt to society" and is unlikely to kill his family again. If he wasn't then it would seem unconchanable that a guy who has experienced such a traumatic episode, followed by 13 years in jail, should be subjected to public speculation based on the content and syntax of his call for help.
I know the needia (sic) are just a pack of salivating jackals and hyenas but do we have to join the circus?.
As far as the tape goes, I'll wait for the remix. -
I am clearly very suggestible.
When I first listened to the tape, having been prompted to hear "I shot the prick", that's exactly what I heard. Now, having read the comments here, I unmistakably hear "I cannot breathe."I'm trying to hear "I can't breathe," but I just can't. I'm stuck on the "sh" "p" and "k" sounds.
I downloaded the file, clipped out the part in question, slowed it down by 25% and listened repeatedly on headphones, and I can certainly hear the passage as transcribed by the police, although the second "I shot" is ropey. But I've been prompted to hear that.
It's fascinating in psychological terms, but yeah, I can see why it wasn't admissable.
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I just played it to Leo, who processes sound differently to most of us, and has very acute hearing.
Unprompted, he heard "I can't" and a hard "k" sound.
Then given the choice between "I can't breathe" and "I shot the prick" -- he went for "I can't breathe".
Other autistic son: pretty much the same result.
And now I hear it too, which is actually something of a relief.
I do think the Supreme Court has done exactly the right thing in releasing this though. I've been hearing about this suppressed evidence for weeks -- and had the judgement and the unedited recording not been released, the talk would never have gone away.
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Re the 111 call, I was far more interested in the discrepancy between Bain stating that his family were "all dead" and then telling the police that he didn't go into his sibling's rooms. To mind the defence case never satisfactorily addressed this other than conveniently ascribing it to recovered memory.
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Hmmm ... I can hear both. If I listen for the prick version expecting to hear it I do. Same applies when I take the same approach but focus on the breathe option.
I suspect the legal beagles got it right in their arguments around admissibility. It could be either and also, given what some experts have said, it equally could be neither.
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Oh come on. If he really did "shoot the prick" where was his massive groin injury?
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I just played it to Leo, who processes sound differently to most of us, and has very acute hearing.
As an aside but food for thought, my relatively new experience of fits has enlightened me of my inability to speak properly whilst having one and I am conscious and try really hard but cant get my words out properly. Also another side effect causes the throat to partially shut down and I cant breathe which can cause anxiety or vice versa. None of this is time consuming per se but cant speak properly, cant breathe, is very real.
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Before reading about it, I very clearly heard "I can't <exhalation noises> breathe <exhalation noises> I can't" while listening for "I shot the prick".
I have a very good monitoring setup for recording, but forming any opinion off the compressed audio from an online video is problematic.
@mark: don't we usually talk about being dead as a continuous state.
I think people avoid any sentence construction that uses "were dead" because it raises the question "what are they now?"
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On a sports thread somewhere.
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Damn not refreshing before posting.
If he really did "shoot the prick" where was his massive groin injury?
On a sports thread somewhere.
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I just played it to Leo, who processes sound differently to most of us, and has very acute hearing.
Unprompted, he heard "I can't" and a hard "k" sound.
So it could even have been "I can't think" or "I can't... feel sick". There are numerous potential interpretations, and only one could be considered to be the alleged confession.
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"I came home and they were dead" is a contraction of
"when I came home, they were dead"
This does not suggest that the subject may now be alive.
The context is predicated in the "when" thus placing the subject (the dead people) in a previous time fixed upon the time of his arrival which proposes the premis, which is, obviously, an universally quantified conditional.
When deconstructing language involving single entities (the I) using only propositional logic we are limited by the level of basic propositions. To overcome this limitation one must take one step further and invoke principals pertaining to predicate logic.
I hope that clears things up. -
Damn not refreshing before posting.
Yes, Sacha. Please make sure you shower and brush your hair before going to the Post Office.
Thank you. -
Steve, whatever. Isn't it more significant that he was emphatic on the point that they were "all dead", and er, how did he know this?
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*whoosh*
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Isn't it more significant that he was emphatic on the point that they were "all dead", and er, how did he know this? Isn't it more significant that he was emphatic on the point that they were "all dead", and er, how did he know this?
Much as I don't like to make assumptions we can only assume the facts behind this particular scenerio.
My assumption would be that if you walked into a situation such as this it would be unlikely that you would expect the rest of the family were too busy having breakfast to deal with the carnage imediately and thought they may get around to it eventually. -
Please make sure you shower and brush your hair before going to the Post Office.
Rofllenui. Bugger, now I'm dirty again.
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Rofllenui. Bugger, now I'm dirty again.
WQell you'll have to wait till monday now. We've run out of hot water.
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Much as I don't like to make assumptions we can only assume the facts behind this particular scenerio.
Steve, there aren't too many assumptions here. The facts are that Bain said clearly and repeatedly in his 111 call that the family were 'all dead' -- but subsequently told police that he didn't go into any of his siblings' rooms. Then at some later point he changed his story, claiming to have recovered the memory that actually he did go into their rooms.
Anyway I know I am harping on this point so now I'll shut up.
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