Hard News: Belief Media
414 Responses
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Russell Brown, in reply to
It could be said of any nonsense the community (people) allege works: Homoeopathy, new age medicine, colour therapy etc etc. If these people pray, yes, it doesn’t hurt me. But I can’t help think that we have a moral obligation to assist in the education of these people to try and appeal to their sense of (il)logic and and persuade them they are wasting their time and resources.
You and I might have a proper duty to try and change the minds of people pursuing faith cures because they could be harming themselves or their dependents.
But people praying for an organisation they support isn't like that at all. You're effectively telling them what they're allowed to think.
It starts to look like the kind of missionary zeal you and I find so irksome in believers.
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This Heathen Manifesto is interesting.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
There is no such thing as a “Christian”.
Well, what would you call someone who believes in Christianity?
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Sacha, in reply to
viciously vanilla conformity
gold
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Lucy Stewart, in reply to
This Heathen Manifesto is interesting.
I'm not taken with the use of the word "heathen" - historically it describes people of the wrong religion, rather than no religion, and it centres that description on the "right" religion - but there are some nice points in there. (Although the "scientism" bit...eh.)
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
Well, what would you call someone who believes in Christianity?
Keep reading, Martin. :) Lazy reliance on collective nouns is addictive for the media (and everyone else), but the Protestant Reformation really happened. I say with some confidence that Anglican Primate William Turei and The Archbishop of Wellington, John Dew, would back me on that.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
The price for that is that you will conform to the community’s expectations. You’ll go to Promise Keepers, and learn how to behave as the head of a family. You’ll go on Christian Women’s Retreats, and learn how to STFU and do what you’re told. You’ll be straight. You’ll stay married no matter what. Your daughters will virginity-pledge. And in return, you’ll have a sense of community, you’ll be cared for. It’s the up-side that allows for the down-side.
A friend of mine in the US is a non-theist Quaker. He seems to have all the upside of community without the downside of odious moral edicts. I rather admire him.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
I’m sure the Anglican Primate William Turei and Catholic Archbishop John Dew would be most surprised to find they believe the same things. The Protestant Reformation is a real thing
Craig, I understand what you are saying and I do know enough about the reformation. Still, the differences between a) Orthodox and Catholic churches and b) Catholic and Protestant are really only of interest if you are debating any of the areas where those churches do not agree. Say, transubstantiation, the doctrine of justification or the Pope.
Otherwise I'd say that Christian is more than just a convenient term for media.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
If someone knows someone is praying for them
Oh but the studies show that when you know someone is praying for you there is an effect. It's when you have no idea that someone is praying for you that there is no effect.
It's yet another demonstration of the placebo effect, the belief that a course of action will have a beneficial effect is enough to create a beneficial effect. The more complex and involved the process the stronger the placebo effect ie placebo surgery works better than placebo pills works better than placebo prayer works better than the yellow hankie.
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Still, the differences between a) Orthodox and Catholic churches and b) Catholic and Protestant are really only of interest if you are debating any of the areas where those churches do not agree.
With all due disrespect, Martin, the next time some freshly-promoted cleric opines in The Herald that a world without gays would be wizard, I'd rather not see it presented as a 'Christian' view.
Not in my name, buddy - and not in the name of a hell of a lot of Christians either.
Though to be fair, it's not only religion where media like creating lazy little Borg collectives. 'Asians' sets my teeth on edge, and (IMO) says a lot more about unclaimed white media privilege baggage than anything else.
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nzlemming, in reply to
A friend of mine in the US is a non-theist Quaker. He seems to have all the upside of community without the downside of odious moral edicts. I rather admire him
Genuine Quakers rock. But I still wouldn't want to be one.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Otherwise I'd say that Christian is more than just a convenient term for media.
It's not a particularly strict term, but that doesn't make it completely meaningless. If someone says they are a Christian, it's a pretty safe bet that they think the words attributed to Jesus are very important. There may well be people calling themselves Christians who don't agree with, believe, or care about the things Jesus is reported to have said, perhaps even going so far as to deny that he ever existed, or said any of those things if he did, but they're surely a tiny minority. Why would they bother to take the name?
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nzlemming, in reply to
Still, the differences between a) Orthodox and Catholic churches and b) Catholic and Protestant are really only of interest if you are debating any of the areas where those churches do not agree. Say, transubstantiation, the doctrine of justification or the Pope.
The people of Northern Ireland might have difficulty with that, to name but one area.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
With all due disrespect, Martin, the next time some freshly-promoted cleric opines in The Herald that a world without gays would be wizard, I’d rather not see it presented as a ‘Christian’ view.
Absolutely, and that would be one of the areas where the different churches do not agree. And yes, it does happen far too often that some
freshly-promoted cleric
takes it upon him (or her-) self to speak in the name of all Christianity. That annoys me too.
Still, in the right context, it's not wrong to discuss Christian or, on an even higher level of abstraction, Judeo-Christian values.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
The people of Northern Ireland might have difficulty with that, to name but one area.
True, but I'd say that it was a political struggle coinciding along religious lines.
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Carol Stewart, in reply to
Genuine Quakers rock
I've never met a non-genuine one.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
Still, in the right context, it’s not wrong to discuss Christian or, on an even higher level of abstraction, Judeo-Christian values.
That’s pretty truistic, but there are a lot more contexts where it’s not only unhelpful but actively irresponsible. I wasn’t just making a bad pun about Sunni and Shia Islam; they’re simply not effectively interchangeable and it can be terribly misleading to act as if they are. OK, I’d say that’s more often about ignorance than malice but there comes a point where that’s a distinction without a difference.
And I think we’ve seen the political uses and abuses of treating an estimated 1.6 billion Muslims -- an incredibly diverse population spread across the face of the planet -- as some homogeneous mass of malignant lunatics.
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Joe Wylie, in reply to
Genuine Quakers rock. But I still wouldn't want to be one.
They were "Friends" way before Facebook.
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Scott Chris, in reply to
If someone says they are a Christian, it’s a pretty safe bet that they think the words attributed to Jesus are very important.
That may be true of liberal Christians. Not so sure about conservative Christians.
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Context counts. While I appreciate the point about internal differences, it is less misleading to say 'Christian' or 'Muslim' in NZ than in the Middle East or Northern Ireland.
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Craig Young, in reply to
"Vanilla" conformity...?! Uh, why does the pro-belting crusade of the late Noughties come to mind? That certainly wasn't vanilla. (PS: Remember Patricia Bartlett? She was an (ahem) SM Nun!*
*"Mercy Sister! Mercy!!!"
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Sacha, in reply to
french vanilla, perhaps :)
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Thursday before easter is nigh ended. Golf tomorrow.
But it is time. Time to partake in one of history's greatest moments. We venture back to 1979. When we celebrate the life of one Brian Cohen.
I DO enjoy a good documentary.
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Scott Chris, in reply to
Still, the differences between a) Orthodox and Catholic churches and b) Catholic and Protestant are really only of interest if you are debating any of the areas where those churches do not agree.
Reminds of this:
A Christian was walking across a bridge one day when he saw a man standing on the edge about to jump off. So he ran over and yelled "Stop! Don't do it!" The man replied, "Why shouldn't I?" The Christian said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" The man responded, "Like what?" The Christian said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" The man replied, "Religious." The Christian said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" The man responded, "Christian." The Christian said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" The man replied, "Protestant." The Christian said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? The man responded, "Baptist!" The Christian said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? The man responded, Baptist Church of God!" The Christian said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" The man replied, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" The Christian said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" The man responded, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" So the Christian said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off the bridge.
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Rob Stowell, in reply to
One year of Sky City’s shiny new pokies could, for example, easily pay for TVNZ 7’s annual budget.
Good point! You should be in parliament :)
Genuine Quakers rock
I’ve never met a non-genuine one.Richard Nixon perhaps? Not someone the Quakers are fond of owning :)
ETA: the ‘strict’ Quakerism described is something I’ve never experienced. In my long-ago experience, it’s a remarkably liberal church. The only thing it seemed Quakers strictly adhered to was pacifism.
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