A good pinot gris* I hope -quaffable, and of sufficient depth to entice another go-

-yes, re the mirror analogy, especially with retaining corporate/organisational/local body knowledge…it suddenly occurred to certain parties here in Big O that I had lived here longer than…

I use the mirror to remind me about the benefit of a few old bastards remaining employed in organisations. The loss/lack of corporate memory means the same mistakes keep getting made. I see it in sports organisations as well. The oldies know…

Not deliberately eh!
It's just the beating heart of my life-work...o, and a celebration of whitebait/ing-season in general.

We are all both; indivisible and discrete. I think even grasping that is a really good start.

I’ve spent waaay too many…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akSV3KQAe_Q&feature=related

Interesting how a metaphor about collective wisdom can be turned into one about individual self-reliance. Different worldviews.

Nicely put!

A small one suggests you don’t look back at much or too often. A biggie means you may look too much…

Like it too. I contrast such obviously thoughtful ways of facing future days with the phoney bravado laid over the "dreary desert sand of dead habit" of modern day leaders.…

I remember watching that as a kid. I have no memory at all of the content except for an interview with Rob Muldoon on the Bible!! I remember him being uncharacteristically affable....

Walking backwards into the future is a widespread Polynesian idea – you can know your past, you cant know your future…the olds also had a…

Have always been impressed with the idea of us walking backwards into the future looking to our ancestors for guidance. Not sure how widespread that is or where I picked it up. Possibly Whakaue Marae.

It pisses me off hugely that those 'talks' are promoted through state schools, with no mention of religion in the advertising. I'm just 'lucky'…

Just incidentally, the olds had some really…

This is part of what fascinates me about Maori folklore; the similarities between the culture's animist spirit and the "sum over histories" of quantum physics. I'd had loved to have been in the…

Scopes Trial #13 here we come

Hardly a fight, more like a drubbing. The poor old Cardinal is staggering around in the late 19th Century, with a smattering of anti-semitism and godwin-ism tossed in for good effect.

And in the UK the Archbishop of Canterbury has stated firmly that "the resurrection is a 'fact' ".

Ahh,…

Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal George Pell.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3469101.htm

The universe? I bought these bloody biscuits. The universe didn't get off its arse and get down to Countdown, I did. Tch!

And adult is the operative word.
Some of the Master and Margarita. Margarita's flight halfway mark NSFW
Forgive the Russian dialogue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgTOmAMYOyE&feature=related

Though unless you believe unquestioning relativism is the only way to go, there also need to be well-supported conversations about common values and expectations across all our cultures. That takes…

Especially when you factor in the historic influence of missionaries here and across across the Pacific. The role of churches in the country's Pasifika communities…

can you re-link us to that West Coast example about the winds?

I still love the idea of a applying a cream which gets you a nighttime naked flight to the devils yearly party, and your maidservant flying by on a lecherous civil servant converted by the cream to a pig.…

Although, as Sacha says, there is a strong tendency in some circles to substitute karakia involving phrases like "te Matua, te Tama,…

The last words of Yeshua/Jesus, from Bulgakov's The Master and Margarita:
'Drink!' said the executioner,…

Religion and culture have been entwined throughout human history. Works of art created in the name of God continue to delight us.

And that could be a crux of the matter. Yes, I fully concur with your comment. But I would have to say, that the vast number of these…

I hope i’m here not just making an argument. Raising a point or 2 mebbe. Oh and offending peoples condescension sense's.

And
Believe it or not I can argue about anything…

I know that humans do a lot of stupid things here on earth such as reality tv, going…

I…

There was a scandal before the PNGHS Prizegiving in 1987. The girls had decided to sing John Lennon's Imagine for the event. The Jesus Freaks raised a big stink about the…

The same slow drift is happening in the USA – the non-believer percentage for under 29s is around 22% and is heading towards 50% in large Western and Eastern seaboard cities.

And that, I think, is a huge upside of the noise created…

I was astonished when I first went to a secondary school assembly in NZ. I'd spent most of my high school education overseas, at an openly Catholic international school in…

Geniune karakia matches that, as we discussed a few years ago here. Christianised prayer in Te Reo is often substituted which I'm not that happy about myself.

It has always been intertwined for many.

You looked up Wikipedia to find what out what culture is? Awesome

Thank you Russell. ;-) Heh. Rarely do I solely "use" wiki as an unadulterated source. But in this case I DID also have quick look at a few other "sources". Memo to self: Need to remind self not…

That's a belief in many cultures, yes, but it's not somehow universally 'true'. Respect for authority is more valued in some cultures than questioning it is.

That was…

What, you mean actually walk the talk about living in a pluralistic society? Crazy talk there, Brown!

Thats not all they do/did.
How has (obviously over time) what should…

Theological arguments and discussions are wasted on me I am just not that interested in them.

The thread does…

Good I hit a nerve. I was trying so dont get too comfortable.
Since when is talking about occupies most of our fellow as this concept (yeah I know its heartfelt and dear to us all). Oh One shouldn't…

not a problem for some

Nah more like a collective thumb sucking.

Sciblogs with a link to GodZone Movie Maker – Michael Wilson

Which is twisted.

Responded to the SST poll this week (it fills in an idle moment) about belief in god. My…

I am having…

Anyway jesus is a device/tool for the unscrupulous to fill that gap that they believe exists

The Jesus stories are so socially consuming they may as well be examined. Jesus , in the story, was smashing very important things up (literally) , he dangerously stands up for one of the…

You mean The Gospel of Mary?

They've worked hard across the years since it was rediscovered to downplay it. It does rather play havoc with the core of especially the Catholic Church (as do other excluded gospels).

And you can't have…

Not this week. But it'll be 10 years in November.

That's just craziness.

Revelation is a throwback to some of the most bloodthirsty parts of…

And yet St John the Divine gets his book in! I never could figure out how.

They let the Gideons show up at our school and hand out copies of the New Testament on a fairly regular basis. I was never sure how that was legit,…

Which means they will learn about it? Umm no just join up...

Churches are trying to connect with young people by using their…

That's the one – ta.

Dont think we can stretch to reach the supernatural or the realm of perfect being.
Anyway jesus is a device/tool for the unscrupulous to fill that gap that they believe exists.

I'm guessing ethics committees aren't a 'front line' service. So where's the harm in gutting them, a bean-counting dunce might ask?

Same. Regular 'religious instruction' sessions (inevitably mono-Christian) always struck me as a dereliction of school responsibility, just to maintain the fiction of independence. I'd like to have seen a range…

aren't most 'role models' stretching us beyond what we are?

Falling short, as it were.

however it is quite a useful business model for a church.

Certain Sounds, perhaps? They were a Christian rock band — or brand, really, given that the lineup changed from year to year — who toured schools.…

I was fascinated to read Philip Pullman’s [[http://thegoodmanjesusandthescoundrelchrist.co.uk/site/| __The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel…

And right on cue: [[http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/6706471/Teens-tuning-in-to-Gods-new-beat|story and video from an Arise church service at Wellington Town…

I'm not saying it was a *good* attitude for me to have. It's basically a manifestation of the classic human assumption that other people hold the same attitudes they do unless…

Living in America has been quite useful for ironing out my internal “X is religious? But they seemed so *normal*!” response. It hasn’t gone away, exactly, but I’m learning to not assume that being non-religious as the default until told otherwise.

There’s a line in an NZ mental health TV…

The one I went to was at the Wellington town hall and I was an eager-to-please 12 or 13-y-o who got sucked in with the emotion of the moment. Commit in haste…

But,…

Being raised in an essentially secular household who nonetheless were dragged along to church on Sundays…

The truth would probably have McCoskrie on the first trip to the insolvency office. Fear and…

Coupled with the fact that even if we knew that he actually was – which is at best about 50/50 – we have absolutely no idea what he really said, did, thought or anything else.

And people wonder why I've got a fair amount of scar tissue on the inside of my bottom lip.

So every time McCroskrie appears in the media from now…

So every time McCroskrie appears in the media from now on, Satan pulls the wings off an angel. Got it.

Legal schmegal ;-)

However I'd put it to y'all it's not necessary to sacrifice the whiskies – we already know McCoskrie is scum.

That unfortunately…

Bettor viewing for all...
One…

Living in…

Sure, and I think I could have made it a lot clearer that I'm certainly not in the camp that thinks there's some kind of secular media…

It's the end of summer too and it's a full moon. In pagan eyes its a big time too.
Jesus is my favourite Jew. Yet the churches of jesus are incredibly quite…

Heh! Skews the ratio – 2 females & 2 males.

nzlemming: I haz hoard of good single malts -would help in that good cause...

One day I am going to get you very, very drunk...

Nearly all the vegans I know…

I cant quite understand where that vegan is coming from...

(All the long-term vegans I know (4)…

I keep meaning to respond to this micro-thread. I think you're right in…

No. And I'm not at all anti-vegan, it's just nice when people are consistent in their principles. If you're going to be kind to animals, I think it makes sense to be kind to people, too.

Like eating meat?

There is a vegan of my acquaintance who is an enthusiastic advocate for the death penalty for a wide range of crimes. I also know some very sweet-natured and reasonable vegans, but like any more extreme lifestyle, it attracts the space cadets.

One thing I really admire about…

I get like that with some vegans.

I've met one or two who follow the form but aren't necessarily nice people. And one who was so non-violenter-than-thou that I just wanted to hit him on general principle. But mostly you're correct.

Reminds of this:

__A Christian was walking across a bridge one day when he saw a man…

But it is time. Time to partake in one of history's greatest moments. We venture back to 1979. When we celebrate the life of one Brian Cohen.

I DO enjoy a good documentary.

*"Mercy Sister! Mercy!!!"

That may be true of liberal Christians. Not so sure about conservative Christians.

That’s pretty truistic, but there are a lot more contexts where it’s not only unhelpful but actively irresponsible. I wasn’t just making a bad pun about Sunni and Shia…

I've never met a non-genuine one.

True, but I'd say that it was a political struggle coinciding along religious lines.

Absolutely, and that would be one of the areas where the different churches do not agree. And…

The people of Northern Ireland might have difficulty…

It's not a particularly strict term, but that doesn't make it completely meaningless. If someone says they are a Christian, it's a pretty safe bet that they think the words attributed to Jesus are very important.…

Genuine Quakers rock. But I still wouldn't want to be one.

With all due disrespect, Martin, the next time some freshly-promoted cleric opines in The Herald that a…

Oh but the studies show that when you know someone is praying for you there is an effect. It's when you have no idea that someone is praying for you that there is no effect.

It's yet another demonstration of the placebo…

Craig, I understand what you are saying and I do know enough about the reformation. Still, the differences between a)…

Keep reading, Martin. :) Lazy reliance on collective nouns is addictive for the media (and everyone else), but the Protestant Reformation really happened. I say with some confidence that Anglican Primate William Turei and The Archbishop of Wellington, John Dew,…

I'm not taken with the use of the word "heathen" – historically it describes people of the wrong religion, rather than no religion, and it centres that description on the "right" religion – but there are some nice points in there. (Although the "scientism" bit...eh.)

gold

Well, what would you call someone who believes in Christianity?

The first half of that century wasn't that much better. At least in the 1950's, it was no longer compulsory for men to wear hats. But yeah, it's all part of a larger psyche issue with NZ, one which still lurks…

You’re welcome to try, Ross, just be fairly warned I don't treat unsolicited envangelism with an excess of Christian grace and charity.

(For the record, I’m a Catholic — not a church with a tradition of lay evangelism so it really…

Well as I said, (a), there’s a difference between someone criticising your belief system and attacking you personally.
and (b), I really don’t think your perceived “but he started it” tit-for-tat is even slightly helpful.

Craig, I…

Well, they, in many cases, believe they…

Which has got me thinking about some modest proposals for lamestream media touching on matters religious.

1) **There is no such thing…

And then there's Rugby, are you a Unionist or are you with the League?

Not sure if these two statements are compatible. If ethical systems evolve as you imply with your second sentence then there cannot be…

Did you see that footage of the Destiny Church ring ceremony? Very much the same sort of vibe.

On the other hand, it didn’t hurt you or me that other people did this thing.

Let's repeat a previous line:

“Science is not going to change its commitment to the truth. We can only hope religion will change its commitment to nonsense.”

It could be said of any nonsense…

what do they actually do there?

You know something, Lilith, and someone who is living with a real mental illness which has fuck-all-nothing to do with my religious faith, I’d just like courtesy repaid by Dawkins. Seriously. Perhaps the conversation about using the rhetoric…

He describes us, broadly, as unintelligent non-believers in the scientific method, to pick one strand of his dismissals of theism. Are you surprised people throw the insults out when they are…

I find the community basis of religious organisations and how they operate really fascinating, in a sick kind of way. It seems particularly stark in the US, with their aversion to "socialism". So the Southern Baptist…

There was a whole…

Sorry I wasnt thinking of that as a communal activity. Even tho religious assemblies think of their get togethers as community based I dont.
I’ll carefully define what I mean in the…

Hear hear. Everything has an opportunity cost. Hence the problem with the 1950's Kiwi Nirvana. It was OK if you're a straight white male who enjoys mowing the lawns…

Is he complaining about theists or about theism? His struggle is surely ideological, not personal.

The guy gets massive amounts…

Quite.

Sorry, what? That's how we most efficiently oppress other people, in groups. Even the most benign group in some sense defines itself by the people it excludes, that's what makes it a group. We don't have to go as far as "lynchings are communal…

I’ve probably said enough on this subject, but many of the people who complain that Dawkins is offensive seem very free with their…

Hilary
I personally prefer the concept of 'right' relationships (originally from Buddhism) which starts from a premise that everyone is fully and equally human,

I think whatshisname was trying to put a chink in the armour of the caste system that was prevalent back…

like Parliament

Ditto (though that's possibly also because I am a person of faith). He is no less offensive and obnoxious than the "in your face" theists of whom he is so derisive, and I know several atheists who consider him…

There's room for everyone here, even the tuataras.

Thank you Will de Cleene

Ta, but don't thank me. Thank the PA System and its colourful ecosystem.

On the other hand, it didn't hurt you…

infidel [in-fi-dl, -del]   [in-fi-dl, -del] noun
1.Religion .
a. a person who does not accept a particular faith, especially Christianity.
b. (in Christian use) an unbeliever, especially a Muslim.
c. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
2. a…

So good lab practice has lab coats never leaving the lab…
I recall some study (reported here in New Scientist ) finding that Doctors’ ties were a serious disease vector…

The…

It also occurs that the other problem with that definition is that there is decidedly more to the physical world than humans can sense. In the spectrum of signals out there,…