Discussion: On Copyright

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  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    They're als reforming cos a lot of their old audience are pining for the hey day when their favourite bands were largely unheralded and the passage of time has seen their recognition grow,

    Maybe for some, and Headless Chooks yet another. I suspect, we have established 80s stuff which ,lets face it, was a period of music growth for this country, and we have a "gone around again" 80s fashion revival and there is a bunch that listened then and we can afford it now and it was and still is a good time, cos well, it was, but I aint pining and my friend is happy he's gonna see his brother and listening to guitar is good . Punk's not dead.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Sorry Computer fukup - there's a teeshirt in there I'm sure.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And aren't they also reforming because their audience has money now?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Sorry Sofie I see you got to that motivation already. Reading deficiently so time to do something else methinks.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    And aren't they also reforming because their audience has money now?

    did you miss my bit about how they're not seeing a dime of anything?
    I know this cos I was responsible for a good 3 reforms in the last couple of years and all of those reforms cost the band members money in travel or accom/food.
    they all did them for reasons completely separate from money. none of em thought they were going to see any cash, just hoped it would come near breaking even. which they did, sort of.

    headless chooks aren't doing it for the cash, although they're pretty careful to not be paying to play either, cos they're skint so that really isn't going to work is it?

    i'd say its got a lot to do with reclaiming former glory and the pleasure in playing songs that have developed in their absence.

    absolutely nothing to do with the speculated well drying up form cd sales. infact I think the above mentioned band managed to break even on their project costs a mere 10 years after the band split. ie they never made a dime till 10 years after and there wasn't much coming down the pipe by then.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    Sophie wrote:

    Also music stuff for me is all about seeing it live, (Neil Young yay!!!)

    I agree with her and I disagree. And it reminds me of something that Robbery said heaps earlier.

    The comment amount the 2 different types of animal, between playing live and recording. And the whole disservice to the recording engineers/peeps.

    I'm also of the understanding that there are bunch of muscians, who aren't into live performance. Simon will probably correct me, but I think Toto is an example of a band that was not so much hung up on Live performance (perhaps initially....or perhaps they were simply trying to pay the bills whilst trying to make being a musician work for them).
    I think the world is a much richer place for the likes of Toto. Though maybe I'm talking through a hole in my arse when I say that there's a proportion of musician's who don't enjoy the performance component and using Toto as the example.

    (As I'm typing this Bob Marley is singing "Get up stand up, stand up for your rights. don't give up the fight")

    Seeing Neil Young play fulfilled a long held aspriation for me earlier in the year and subsequently I have purchased a minidisc recorder & mic, so that I don't have to rely just upon my recollection of a gig. However I'm still beating myself up about not having taken this step prior to seeing Neil. So gig's now for me a little bit more sombre and I do get a bit wound up by the f*&%#^s that stand next to me and talk inanely with their mates throughout the gig....not that I've acted upon that at the gig as I am generally so entranced by the music and wondering if the recording level has been set to manual at the appropriate level.

    It takes a few hours or so to do the file conversion, splitting the recording into tracks, identifying and adding the track names, let alone attempting to remove noise. I was at a "The Cinematic Orchestra" gig a few weeks back, (which actually a bit yawn inducing), but I did really like the fact that you could buy the live recording of the gig that was ready 10 mins after the end of the gig (if you bought a pre-sale and I dare say if you decided after the fact)
    . I chose not to buy, as I had my minidisc with me (pity about the almost flat battery) and was looking forward another night refining the art of being a taper. Though looking back, it would have been a great opportunity to get a recording against which I could compare my recording....like a scientific control.

    My recordings on the other hand have a bit of crowd noise, the levels might get a bit bung and the gaps between songs get truncated, but they represent the moment that I was there. Other than sharing them with the missus who uses the same laptop, they don't get out onto the net, though I totally enjoy listening to live stuff that other people have made available. The little variations and sometime quite big self-indulgent solo's that get peformed live, are magic and make a live peformance special and for me are the the reward for the hours of listening to the same old album version.

    If the gig is a good one, and providing I've not be burnt by other gig's putting out bad live post concert CD's I'd have no hesitation in handing over $10-15 for a CD of that night's gig (as I do if the concert merchandise is good, not to mention buying a bit of liquor at the venue-bar). I can totally understand the need to attempt to manage demand by pre-selling CD's for a gig you're about to see, but if the gig's been a cracker what you've just had is an hour or so of primo advertising.


    Simon made a comment elsewhere regarding asking himself, if the albumn he is considering purchasing is worth the money given that it may only get a couple of listens. Great point. In determining the price point for any (live) CD, you have to consider that it may only get a couple of listens. Alternatively the album may become a firm favourite. Where do you want to set the price point? Too high and you cut yourself off, too low and you don't make any money, which you'd normally pour into the next project. What is the price elasticity of music, or a given band? And what factors may impact this?...Ah fuck it's a barrel of worms. Anyone got any decent advice on this? I've currently got the time to have a look at this, but don't want to simply start with google...

    Actually as I have been writing this comment, Sarah has had to interrupt me to get on skype to talk to her sister back in NZ, who is trying to be an artist, but keeps on struggling with the whole food on the table thing. (Yoda saying "Do or don't there is no try" pops into my mind, but despite the inherent wisdom of little green puppets, putting food on the table is kinda important). I've spent a little bit of time in Austria visiting oldest childhood friend, who is out there on the creative path. Austria is interesting to me in that they seem to have a lot more emphasis on supporting the arts, than I'd expect for a nation that I'd regard as not having a whole lot of love for the arts, or being associated with warm fuzzy feelings...But I guess they know better than some what can occur when artists turn bad.

    righto I have to go outside. Real weekend is passing me by.

    Belgium • Since Nov 2006 • 464 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    And those are the ones I admire, so maybe that is the whole point? RESPECT

    you admire people who get shafted?
    I get the whole support the underdog thing but wow, I don't know that I'd want to pay the entry fee to join that club, not that I don't seek you're admiration but, .......surely there's an easy way of getting it???

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    ..surely there's an easy way of getting it???

    yep. Take one of mine or plant your own Oak tree whilst listening to "Harvest" (Mr Young) as loud as your listening device will let you. Smile and say Thank you Robbery, I feel so much better. :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Toto is an example of a band that was not so much hung up on Live performance (perhaps initially....or perhaps they were simply trying to pay the bills whilst trying to make being a musician work for them).
    I think the world is a much richer place for the likes of Toto. Though maybe I'm talking through a hole in my arse when I say that there's a proportion of musician's who don't enjoy the performance component and using Toto as the example.

    It was the song "Africa" that they didn't like playing live, it just didn't fit into their set, they were as heavy rock band. The fact that they were a "one hit wonder" was ironic the didn't want the song but they sure as hell wanted the money.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    they all did them for reasons completely separate from money. none of em thought they were going to see any cash, just hoped it would come near breaking even. which they did, sort of.

    headless chooks aren't doing it for the cash, although they're pretty careful to not be paying to play either, cos they're skint so that really isn't going to work is it?

    An audience who can afford to pay does not mean the performers are going to make money - though as you note it increases the chance they won't be paying for the pleasure or glory out of their own pockets.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    An audience who can afford to pay does not mean the performers are going to make money - though as you note it increases the chance they won't be paying for the pleasure or glory out of their own pockets.

    Aren,t they advertising?If they get out there, tell the paying public what they are up to, give a good performance, please the crowd (hopefully more than 1) , mention their latest cd, ask that we buy it, dada! Someone sees them, someone buys the cd, plays it at next party, has a conversation about the gig, raves about the "brilliant night" had out and recommends the music which by now one is po-going all over the furniture, falls breaks arm, ends up at A&E (waiting) but remembers the concert for the rest of life(no matter how short). Now if you do that, some may buy the cd, some may download, they will get kudos. And you can't take that away!

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Aren,t they advertising?

    yep, posters are really expensive to up up these days. something like $1.50 per A3 and a lot more for bigger sizes. that's more than it costs to print them but if you don't pay the poster cartels your poster is wiped out.

    If they get out there, tell the paying public what they are up to, give a good performance, please the crowd (hopefully more than 1) , mention their latest cd,

    yes to all of that but the one factor you're not taking into account is we are cheap arse as a nation and more so the further south you get. ask any touring band about the people in dunedin arguing over a $5 cover charge. pretty bad in chch too. much better in wellington where they're more used to a higher charge to cover better production standards. AK may have the guest list the length of your arm problem.

    compared to other nations the UK routinely has cover charges of 5- 8 pound for low level gigs ($15 - $24)
    Japan has similar or higher. A 4 band sampler night of nobodies (of which I was one) had a cover charge of about nz$40. This is completely standard and relates to say a play with multiple live performers and production costs.
    Here we will argue tooth an nail about it, fight for our right to free, add to that a tiny touring circuit of 4 main cities and a max of not much more if you do the smaller towns and there isn't a positive spin you can put on it.

    so show the love to those artists playing the reforms. that's their actual payment, the appreciation of the people who remembered their music and told them they done good by coming back to see em.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Oh come on Rob. I have known local bands for years who have made their money out of performing, yes millionairs they aint but they make more than a burger flipper and admitedly a few did both (perform and flip burgers that is) You seem to have the impression that if someone plays music then they have a right to get rich, that's bollocks.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    so show the love to those artists playing the reforms. that's their actual payment, the appreciation of the people who remembered their music and told them they done good by coming back to see em.

    And we come full circle, (like my plant a tree and then Harvest) I do know it cost me $195 (guess everyone is on better wages)and I will enjoy being back in the Monte Cristo Room (albeit diff name now) and yeah Some good advertising I guess also, ... go for a drink, friend wanders in mentions Proud Scum, another walks in, the plan begins. Sorted by lunchtime. I am just lucky my man can make furniture :) Punks not dead!

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    You seem to have the impression that if someone plays music then they have a right to get rich.

    nup, pretty sure I didn't say that anywhere in my posts, no comments about getting rich the pursuit of getting rich or anyone who has got rich. the word rich may well not be in my list of words I use when talking about music. it kinda seems irrelevant.

    my angle is more, if someone puts on a show, and people attend said show, then it is a good to aim for a cover charge spread across the members of the public attending that will cover the costs of putting on said show. just basic economics really.

    That it is harder to do that the further south you go is an interesting observation don't you think. probably has to do with the level of income dropping down there and maybe the less cosmopolitan nature of the population.
    hence people in japan or london pay a shit load for a cab, in chch or dunners, you try and walk it.
    bigger distances I know but you get my point. the do it yourself attitude plays large in it I'm sure. I can't bring myself to fork $25 for a cab ride. $25 seems a lot for a gig, knowing the budgets to put these things on it isn't, but it seems it. you see what I'm saying?

    and tell me bout these local bands making money. do you see the making money part as equating to they played for 3 hours and got $75 so they're raking it in, cos you have to factor in rehearsal, travel etc to come to an actual income to expenditure figure.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    what cost you $195 sofie?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    AK 79 live (x3)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    And also Robbery, I know quite a few who have bought tickets to make sure others didn't miss out.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    the word rich may well not be in my list of words I use when talking about music. it kinda seems irrelevant.

    That was my reaction to you saying that "nobody makes any money out of touring" my point was they do but not heaps.

    if someone puts on a show, and people attend said show, then it is a good to aim for a cover charge spread across the members of the public attending that will cover the costs of putting on said show. just basic economics really.

    You don't have to spend a whole bunch of cash on advertising in a country this size, word of mouth is all it takes, I know, I have done it. You just have to read the public.

    That it is harder to do that the further south you go is an interesting observation don't you think.

    There are lots of Scots down south ;-)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    I'm off t'pub Robbery. Is there any bands you'd like me to advertise? :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    AK 79 live (x3)

    $62 a gig, probably realistic and compares to a theatre ticket which is probably pretty close to what you'll be seeing :)
    $21700 per gig split between bands, players, venue, ticket agents and production costs.
    I'd like to see someone in chch or dunners try that price.
    are you going to wear your bondage trousers and torn jacket or would that be just weird?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    torn jacket

    Always, couldn't part with me original jet, and I don't need a gig to wear it either. Does that make me weird.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Does that make me weird.

    umm, only if you want it to.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    This thread is compulsive viewing...coupla things:

    Jon Knox - I've never wanted to be omnipotent (omniscience is another matter, but would probably result in terminal sadness) but person I definitely am...tentacular, entomnivorous,also really odd tastes in music (Cooder to Segovia to Gregorian chant), but a definite person...

    The only reason I didnt go for Sofie? Sacha?'s suggestion apropos an IP supportive/administrative body for all creative types is der dreaded bureaucracy...we have the CLL (opaque criteria, little money getting back to authors) and CNZ (where every bureaucrat therein whom I have ever met earns more than I do - yep, I've asked) - this computer at home freezes after about 50 minutes use, so it's taken me a while to catch up-to-date with the thread...thoughts for future copyright change apopo -

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    The more we fiddle with the market, the less efficient it becomes and the more inequality and distortion of market forces that is produced, thus justifying more intervention, which further distorts the market forces....

    As Islander says the "dreaded bureacracy".

    Now I'm not entirely advocating the free markets, that would be more than a litte ironic, but I am advocating a process by which the amount of fiddling with the market is minimised. Solutons that are light on the amount of artificial bureaucracy (coz there does tend to be a natural amount of bureaucracy even in functioning marketplaces...if such a thing exists anymore), in which the process has natural flow & rhythm, tend to go the distance/last a bit longer, requiring less ongoing maintenance, reducing market distortion.... For me the existing copyright situation is an example of a process that is optimally light on the bureaucratic side of things, or seemed to be until...

    I'd like to advocate a solution that has a simple elegance, but currently can't see one beyond the current copyright system being retained, the screams of the music industry ignored prior to their extinction and some smaller, more motivated players (perhaps vultures) moving in to the void afterwards. (Maybe after reading so much of this thread, I'm needing to take a step back as I can't see the woods for the trees).

    The arts will suffer to some degree in the interim with the marketplace for artist works suffering a bit of a dry patch. The number of people participating in the arts may decline, as only those that are creating artistic works for their own pleasure/purposes with sufficent means for survivial will continue to do so in the style to which they/we've become accustomed. Those people who otherwise might participate in art might be scared off/unable to overcome some of the (financial) barriers that exist.

    But is participation not a two way street. There is the artists in one direction and the consumers of that art in the other direction. If the costs are too high on either side, there is a risk of the that side being put off by that barrier to entry, in terms of both supply and demand.

    The value of art to me is more than simply the price that's put on the piece of art. A society without art, is a society on the decline, as the aspirational power of art overcomes the glum reality of this increasingly overcrowded litte corner of the cosmos . Makes me wonder to what degree is the significance of art increasing (in terms of the feel good factor), as realistic worldviews (perhaps) rise over supernatural ones?

    Is there some sort of natural model that applies, works well and that we could borrow a few ideas from, as the overly complex, bureaucratic solutons don't seem to do anyone much good and are perhaps the policy of last resort.

    Belgium • Since Nov 2006 • 464 posts Report Reply

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