Discussion: On Copyright

738 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 21 22 23 24 25 30 Newer→ Last

  • Steve Barnes,

    a key part of my point is what has public good got to do with it if you don't apply it equally to all areas of your society.

    We, sort of, do.
    Say I want to build a house and I decide to make my own nails. Does the "nail manufactures association" have a right to charge me for the use of a concept?

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    "nail manufactures association" have a right to charge me for the use of a concept?

    do they own the patent for nails as granted to them by law?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Fair enough. I'd ask that you actually observe and analyse what the industry is saying, rather than accept and repeat it as "fact"

    Considering I'm actually agreeing with parts of what you say that's an odd thing to say

    Umm, firstly you can't prove a negative and secondly, this is merely industry cant. Not fact. If you can't prove your point, stop making it. I've provided material to back mine up.

    No, all you've really proved is that the industry waffles, large parts of your evidence is either a) thoroughly dated and therefore of little use, or b) irelevant to the music industry. When I can download a handbag then we will talk.

    Most of those links at your google link are little better...blog posts, dated data etc. I've provided personal experience as to why piracy hurts sales, and you haved really countered that beyond the Ï don't think so level. Maybe, to use a poliing term since it's that time of the cycle, my daughter and all her friends are outiers, but I don't think so. Can you tell me perhaps why they are the exception? Why that particular group of 40 or so kids are not average, because everything I'm seeing says they are. And if they are it's pretty clear that piracy is causing industry losses.

    As for FFD, I never said that there couldn't be breakthroughs, just that it's so much harder than it was because of the little musical ghettos. This kid listens to hip hop exclusively, that one to death metal, where once they would have listened to a much wider range because the outlets (i.e. radio) would try to meet the whole market. Now they can find an Internet redio station that specialises in their particular taste. Why would they listen to anything else. Without the exposure, they're not going to buy.

    And I'm saying that's nonsense. Kids have always niched themselves. Do you serioulsy think there was a huge crossover between say The Clash and Chic although both were huge at the same time. It's a myth Mark.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    where once they would have listened to a much wider range because the outlets

    my personal findings on this have been completely the opposite. people are more open to a wider range of sounds now, and 25 years ago were even more niche in their tastes.
    I know I was.
    a lot of the kids I come across are into indie and durm and bass and a bit of retro and a bit of etc. That would never have happened around me in my circle 25 years ago.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    do they own the patent for nails as granted to them by law?

    Why should they?
    And let's say the plans for the house were copyright of, say, Initial homes for instance. Would I be breaking any law if I built my house to those plans? (assuming I didn't copy the plans themselves and I was building the house for myself)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Why should they?
    meaning does your imaginary institute of nails association of new zealand (come on steve, you can do better :)) own the copyright for nails. and if not then there is no issue. make your own nails if you wish. If they did hold a copyright on it in your imaginary world, then you would be liable for the breech of patent. note you're talking patent, which is different from copyright.
    but this line of thinking has been dug over and debunked up thread extensively so there really is no point in re hashing it.
    see a few pages back for simons workings on the house example.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Actually, you can prove a negative.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Ah, I see. You meant that "negative proof" is a fallacy, which is correct.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Actually, you can prove a negative.

    Well of course you can.
    ie. "I am not not here" logically it means "I am here"
    But the statement was "you can't prove a negative"
    ie." it is not true that I am not here"
    Both statements are double negatives, conradictions.
    I think the whole "you can't prove a negative"thing is one of those factoids logicians throw around to show how clever they are.
    I was taught this, ironically, by a man called Girle.
    Anypoo. I have proven that the statement "I am here" must be true but as you read this you may look around and find find that I am not, as you perceive, here.
    Therefore. That music you are listening to cannot be mine.
    Because. If I write a song about a tree falling in the forest without there being a person to hear it and then allow it to be recorded and played back in a forest without a person to hear it. Is it still a song?
    ;-)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Therefore. That music you are listening to cannot be mine.

    Was meant to say

    Therefore. That song you are listening to cannot be mine.

    Where is that damned EDIT button?

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    As for FFD, I never said that there couldn't be breakthroughs, just that it's so much harder than it was because of the little musical ghettos.

    although a quick check of the NZ album chart would indicate that it may be easier now than at any time in the past. There were 13 NZ acts in the top 40 albums a couple of weeks back including several that are platinum. This is not only a first but a radical first.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Thanks for clearing that up, Steve. ;)

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    @3410 - yeah, real clear now. ;-)

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    although a quick check of the NZ album chart would indicate that it may be easier now than at any time in the past. There were 13 NZ acts in the top 40 albums a couple of weeks back including several that are platinum. This is not only a first but a radical first.

    And that's great. It goes, yet again, to my main point - what needs "fixing" in our copyright arrangements? If it's working well and promoting innovation (which is what it's for), why do we need mess with it? (I realise you largely agree with me on this - the question is rhetorical)

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Considering I'm actually agreeing with parts of what you say that's an odd thing to say

    I know you are, but you seem to be stuck to the concept that piracy is definitely doing dreadful damage to the music industry. You state it as fact, but don't produce the numbers to back that up. That's the music industry's position, (hardly disinterested) and yet you accept it and say it must be true.

    I agree that there is piracy, and I agree the music industry bodies (labels and advocates) are not seeing the same revenue they grew used to during the nineties. I don't see evidence that one is causing the other, although I do see the correlation of both with the rise of the use of the internet.

    No, all you've really proved is that the industry waffles, large parts of your evidence is either a) thoroughly dated and therefore of little use, or b) irelevant to the music industry.

    a) how about some more recent figures? What I see here is a hump of expanded sales peaking around 1999-2000 (gosh, wasn't Napster around then?) and then gradually dropping back to pre-1994 levels. What I'm not seeing is a devastating attack on the industry from piracy. Just not the continued growth they would have liked. Looks like a bubble is a possible answer.

    b) Given that the music and motion picture spokes persons have quoted the figures in the Ars article for their own purposes, they're tarred with that brush.

    When I can download a handbag then we will talk.

    Funny, but not my analogy.

    Can you tell me perhaps why they are the exception? Why that particular group of 40 or so kids are not average, because everything I'm seeing says they are. And if they are it's pretty clear that piracy is causing industry losses.

    I'm not disputing the downloading happens. I am suggesting that the negative impact on the industry is heavily overstated.

    Maybe the RIAA developed this concept of piracy as the music killer to make them more relevant to their members? As in "here's a cause that you need us to fight for you". Stranger reasons for campaigns have happened.

    Kids have always niched themselves. Do you serioulsy think there was a huge crossover between say The Clash and Chic although both were huge at the same time.

    Yes, kids have. But they may have heard a wider range from radio when there weren't so many niche stations.

    No I don't think there was much crossover between particular fans, but there were plenty of us that didn't especially espouse either but knew who both were and had heard their music.

    I'm pretty much done with the music business here. You don't seem to want to consider that piracy might not be the Big Bad the industry says it is. In fact, you say it must be a factor. I don't agree, as I think the crap business model the industry is still labouring to preserve is more at fault (plus the economy). They just haven't got that Internet feeling yet. Let's leave it at that, eh? It has bugger all relevance to the concept of copyright, anyway.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    I wonder if what we're seeing is a blockage.

    I am sort of over the whole trying to quantify the economic consequences of the change to the music industry. To make this estimate anywhere near vaguely correctly we'd need a really sophisticated model, in which we could dial-in all sorts of factors (as this is not a ceteris paribus type deal), an independent organisation, an independent governance/review authority and even then if it was accepted as a "best effort" type deal, there would be a bunch of people (probably quite rightly) claiming the model was flawed not to mention the nutjobs too.

    But If we leave it alone for long enough, people will forget what the old industry was like...eventually...you know like when we're all worm fodder, then it may sort of sort itself out...like when God created Adam & Eve and put them here and left them to work it out. (metaphorically). (fundamentally it's an ecosystem, just like any ecosystem, but there's been a big & sudden change...that type of deal).

    I do however understand that people are perhaps getting stuck on this point, as it's an indicator relevant to a particular industry of where to draw the line regarding industry pain (Supply) and the other line being Public Good (Demand) and the balancing act thereafter.

    Maybe the idea that we're trying to find is a perhaps one size fits all, suits nobody (perhaps that's not true....I probably look fine in a kaftan), or it could be a little more fitted to categories of industry/creationism (yeah I know that it's a clunky way of being inarticulate, but adsense revenue ++....er what is the catch-all term for all of the industry and non-industry involved in the production of tangible & intangible products & services, some of which may be completely outside of the current economic models?).

    Righto I'll stop being sensible now and revert to 'Plan A'

    Belgium • Since Nov 2006 • 464 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    Simon wrote:

    Considering I'm actually agreeing with parts of what you say that's an odd thing to say

    Mark replied:

    I know you are...

    Choice...Am I ever glad that I'm not the only omnipotent person on this thread....I don't believe Islander is a person, though she is undoubtably omnipotent too.

    Belgium • Since Nov 2006 • 464 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    but you seem to be stuck to the concept that piracy is definitely doing dreadful damage to the music industry. You state it as fact, but don't produce the numbers to back that up.
    Simon produced real world examples and you ignore them.

    "sorry mate, i know you SAY you're in a hurricane but until its written in an article I'm afraid I can't acknowledge your plight"

    even better examples, your friends and possibly (most likely) even yourself if you're honest enough, all of em if they know how to use a computer and can easily do it without repercussions are grabbing albums they would have bought to hear even if they ended up selling em to the deceased corpse of real groovy, if you're honest enough to deal with that fact.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    OK let's put the numbers aside for a bit.

    Anyone else got a vision of how things might work?

    Belgium • Since Nov 2006 • 464 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Anyone else got a vision of how things might work?

    Yes.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Oh, I suppose you want me to qualify that.
    Ok. All music will be free with an accompanying lunch. We will all wear flowing robes and dance in the sunshine and the CD burners will lie down with the Lions of the recording industry. We shall forge our copyrights into fileshares and we shall frolic in the meadows of freedom and no tree shall fall sad and lonely in the forest without a soul to hear it's song. And all will be wonder and light an sound an shit. Anat n stuff init. ;-)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    You forgot the pony

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I smell drugs

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Ok then Drugs and ponies too.
    WooooHoooo :-)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Hey, and look over there, Damian's got BEER

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 21 22 23 24 25 30 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.