http://www.radionz.co.nz/__data/assets/audio_item/0006/1774869/aft-20081105-1510-Virtual_World-m048.asx

Whilst approaching copyright, should we not be tackling the issue of 'intellectual property' as a whole- particularly as it relates to biotechnology and pharmaceuticals given the real-world impact which intellectual property rules have on public health?

I think that's more patent than copyright, but an interesting area that's well out…

Whilst approaching copyright, should we not be tackling the issue of 'intellectual property' as a whole- particularly as it relates to biotechnology and pharmaceuticals given the real-world impact which intellectual property…

petticoat

and you can't talk you big pansy. running off in a tiff every time someone doesn't agree with you :)
I'm pretty sure if it came to a dress up competition between you and me you'd be the one wearing the petticoat, not that there's anything wrong with that.…

And don't come cryin to me if one of them newfangled horseless carriages crushes your petticoat..

.........ok,

good night at the pub was is sasha?
sadly I spent my day recording more fodder for that hack Lessig to liberate me of, and for that other hack dubber (lovely bloke though…

You didn't have to read it...

why would i not read something that directly affects me?, it's you bystanders that didn't have to read it,

and besides,

no warning, no spoiler alert, I blame you, its all your fault,

If you're not already aware, Matthew Poole

gee thanks mark, why couldn't you have not told us and we could have gotten on with some actual real life work,

someone's wrong on the internet indeed.

i used to be a librarian in another life and it never ceased to amaze me how you could have truckloads of information that so many people hadn't the first clue how to find what they want in it.

Yeah I'm kinda struck by the need to have decent processes…

although mp3 is a worse version of a product, its not that bad to listen to in most situations. it would really show up in a sit down and listen to your expensive stereo in a controlled room environment but who has the time for that these days.

That seems…

do people who've never known that experience eventually hanker for something more substantial than downloading bits and pieces – is that even measurable? If they've never known a more substantial experience, will they never miss it?

from what I've been seeing I think that people will not miss what they…

Au contraire....their standard cap seems to be 150GB

At average current broadband download speeds in NZ, how long would it take to get through that?

A couple of years ago, it seemed that free muinicipal wireless networks were going to be all the rage. Sydney joined the growing list of…

do people who've never known that experience eventually hanker for something more substantial than downloading bits and pieces – is that even measurable? If they've never known a more substantial experience, will they never miss it?

I meant to respond to this yesterday, but Dexter got in the…

Let's pretend copyright ends tomorrow. What do you think will happen?.....yes, i think there would be a general blanding. Creatives would hold onto their best work...

I wonder does the lack of lack of teeth in enforcment of copyright regarding music file "sharing" not already sort of mean that at…

Overseas the datacaps are gone

Au contraire, the US telcos are just discovering the concept (although their standard cap seems to be 150GB, and people are complaining about that)

Let's pretend copyright ends tomorrow.

reaches for sockpuppets......

well one answer to that would be to enforce your own copyright.
'live' only performances of works, strictly enforced conditions of entry (no recoding devices, cameras inc phones left outside etc)

another answer to that would be to produce something around the…

Integrity's a dirty word now, isn't it?

it definitely used to be but the whole be seen to be green thing may be changing that.
I was meaning more in a business sense respecting the integrity cos that intergrity keeps value in the work. if you take away the integrity…

it really illuminates how important it is to the integrity of the art we create that we do have control over what is done…

under current copyright law – for writers- I do control my work

I was more asking about your feelings on your work after your copyright has lapsed, when you'll be dead and gone of course but your trustees will have to deal with under current laws although simon points out…

they already measure how much data you download. its how they pump up what they charge you.
1 gig, 2 gig, 5 gig, 10.

Overseas the datacaps are gone...Well certainly in the UK it seems to be all you can eat for about 10 quid a month. When I was…

as evident in the breakdown of the CD sale figures where the artist is lucky to $2 out of a full price CD sale

was that from my figures? I don't think I broke down the last stage properly.
so label gets $13 of which they have to take out…

. I'm imagining it bypasses the ISP usage detectors cos it comes from a registered 'media' site which they'd know cos they know where you're visiting etc.
maybe there's a $1 episode which is riddled with mind numbing ads and a $2 episode which is pristine ad free.

I get…

(the butcher fell ill with a lung disorder so your Nonna's ANZ incarnation of her recipe – hasnt nappened yet-)

That's no good... maybe I'll have to make it then!

You fellas ever go south? You'd like my Mother-

Can't hear you over the sound of these bags that I'm packing. I'll see you Thursday.

Quoting the Onion? It's a satire site, Giovanni...

I'm new to this thread, so perhaps I'm missing an in-reference here? Because otherwise my straight answer…

You fellas ever go south? You'd like my Mother-

And they cant. They dont have anything me or mine – want-

Oh, and that's just beautiful, by the way.

I have made a will which ensures NONE of my trustees can alienate the dramatisation rights for that paticular novel.

The divine Mr. Giesel didn't and look what happened.

my novel works best in your mind.

couple of questions for you islander.
how do you feel about your right to control your work?
I take it some time in the future when copyright lapses someones going to have a crack at your novel an stamp their own vision on…

A new technology that essentially allows content owners to profit from piracy will get a high-profile test this month from MySpace and MTV Networks.

interesting development. wonder how that works for small players. ie people who have one off movies. you have to have something you want to advertise, and…

I'm also fairly sure that the IRD will be keen to get a slice of any action and am a little surprised that the tax angle hasn't been pushed as one of the drivers for change.

The IRD assesses your total income, including your bank accounts. It's your responsibility to…

people will share by other means, such as loading up their 250gb USB devices with data, or by more actively trading DVD's on the likes of Trade-me or other examples of networks that don't actually push data over the domain of the ISP

and I think media creators will consider…

full reuters story here

A new technology that essentially allows content owners to profit from piracy will get a high-profile test this month from MySpace and MTV Networks.

Instead of triggering the usual take-down notices, copyright-infringing footage of select MTV Networks programing uploaded by MySpace subscribers would be…

I don't get what Sacha is going for with the banking analogy either

I was trying to get Sacha to explain his ideas a bit more. I had my own ideas about his analogy, but was more interested in his than my own.....(But now I'm over that and I'm back…

I suggest that we could/should all look really coolly at matters like
*audio books/renditions thereof of any kind
*any kind of electronic rendition of any kind of print (including drawings)

– hey, I've been hassled by Microsoft!

What happens when you sign a publishing contract – are all rights, like…

and then deny that you're part of an industry.

I didn't deny I was part of an industry, I was rejecting your culture industry tag because it suggests creatives are the servants of all the other people in society.

protect the rights of the individual except if they're creating something…

I suggest that we could/should all look really coolly at matters like
*audio books/renditions thereof of any kind
*any kind of electronic rendition of any kind of print (including drawings)

– hey, I've been hassled by…

despite the intensive efforts of many here

and while we're at it can you outline the experience of your team of "many".
I haven't notice the only other people who I know by reputation "educating my ass"
ie islander and mr grigg,
mr stowell i know and respect,
don's input…

is offensive.

You really do not seem to have a clue, despite the intensive efforts of many here to educate your ass

kettle, pot, black.
jesus....... you rude b'stard.

maybe I do need to know what you're back ground is. tell us a bit about yourself sasha and why we…

You really do not seem to have a clue, despite the intensive efforts of many here to educate your ass. You cling to an old-fashioned understanding of the world that privileges "authors", you…

Basically, a litre of petrol or a can of baked beans can only be sold once (ignoring the futures markets bolted on by financial traders). The…

Am not quite however following the link to the music industry/IP/copyright here.

no, me either, but it seemed quite promising until we all admitted we didn't really know anything about it.
from my limited understanding there seems something vaguely illegal about loaning the same money to different people. that's not…

the ability to lend the same funds more than once, and enabled by a regulatory framework that enforces market barriers to competition.

All that leverage was working so well, until reality hit and the fundamental importance of having enough assets to cover liabilities was "discovered".

Am not quite however following…

what angle are you looking for on this banker thing?

Sheesh, it's only a page ago:

leveraged lending and a regulated market advantage

= the ability to lend the same funds more than once, and enabled by a regulatory framework that enforces market barriers to competition.

I don't think that's pushing particularly hard

no but you got the points about fans of the product, hated mega corps and doing something as long as you can get away with it so it served its purpose, even more so with the snazzy electric car angle. you can't see…

most examples fall apart if you push them hard enough

Uh, I don't think that's pushing particularly hard. As others have pointed out upthread, there's a fundamental difference between selling something that is all used up in the sales process and something that is not depleted at all.

I agree…

Rob, when you can sell the same litre of petrol more than once, come back to us with the Jayden story.

as you're aware most examples fall apart if you push them hard enough, but I'm sure you got the point i was making.
its interest that you see media…

Am just a little unclear on that digital revenue figure.

just my personal experience of selling through download, over the space of almost 3 years the income from digital downloads was approximately 1/25th of the income generated from normal cd sales, even less since the download site also sold hard…

Am just a little unclear on that digitial revenue figure.
Do you mean that the artist is getting approx 1/25 of the value of the sale (eg $0.60 on a $15 download), or 1/25 of the (few dollars) of revenue that they would have got for…

as much maligned as the label part of it is its bloody hard work, apparently quite thankless sometimes

I don't doubt this. But there are actually plenty of jobs which are pretty or entirely thankless....you'll clean my toilet/remove my rubbish and be grateful you have a job.

Plenty of other…

If the legitimate route can be made to appeal, then that's the better mechanism for me.

or if the illegitimate is made very unappealing.
definitely delivery mechanisms need to be fixed. I don't have the time for either. bit torrent can be a lot of work too.

I'd love to know what the figures for the digitial music sales industry are.

real world example, really really bad. and I've heard that from a lot of other people too. I think some genres do well, like r and b but my personal experience of digital downloads is they…

Label for pressing. How much effort needs to be retained here?

in music a labels role is often to make it happen. you may not have noticed but many musicians couldn't tie their own shoelaces, let alone pay for the shoes, although they can write and play pretty tunes.

a…

Without the need to shift so much physical product, what are the distributors doing?

distributor relates specifically to physical product.
The digital equivalent is an aggregator, like amplifier.co.nz who present your music to itunes etc and take a good cut for the service.
Itunes won't deal with individuals so you…

Who does the music industry seem to be looking to lumber/shaft/burden with that obligation?

music, film, tv, software and game industry. there are a few parties interested in seeing ISP's monitor their traffic.and its not shaft/burden etc, its enforce a law, and it is a law, good, bad or inconvenient,…

Costs are coming down all the time and setting up an online shop doesn't seem that hard, plenty of people are doing that for themselves, or shopping around for service providers who will look after that part of the process.

yes and no re costs. They're pretty table now and…

Online store takes a smaller cut

Sorry this should read "the risk-reward model suggestes that online stores should be taking a smaller cut".

I could be downloading stuff that is legitimate.

you could be, that's true. but 90 gigs every month is possibly something else. its probably not music though, its film and tv, and a little music, and film and tv have a lot more money and muscle to put pressure down.…

It's about building a preference for your product in the market and the willingness to pay. It seems that for the…

ere's some figures for you. (approx for ease)

Cool...I've been waiting for this info.

if you sell a cd in a store for $29. (store keeps $12)
$17 of that goes to the distributor, (distributor keeps $4)
$13 of that goes to the label (label pays for pressing, recording costs…

are there better ways of delivering media. hell yeah.
I'd happily pay a couple of bucks for an episode sans ads of my favourite program. If I like 5 programs a week that's $50 a month more or less. that's good income for a media content provider.

Yeah the whole…

They know if you're using software typically associated with media infringement ie peer to peer (known cos ISPs can see what program you're using, IE, Firefox etc).
They know what sites you visit.
They will be able to know the content of what your traffic is., if they don't already.

…

they know if you're downloading a lot cos of your data totals at the end of the month.

I could be downloading stuff that is legitimate. Shayden's kids (Blayden and LeDamian) might have been in the school play (Merchant of Venice) that one of the other parents taped & uploaded with…

come back to us with the Jayden story.

oh you'll be hearing more from jayden, and his 2 brothers (hayden and shayden), possibly even their cousins shane, dwyane, and another name that rhymes with that lot)
but I got to do work for the next few hours.
till then, you'll…

'scuse the Friday morning flippancy

Thursday night grumpiness here at the mo'...so 'scuse that too.

Suspect all traces of my serious tone will be well and truly gone by the morning.

Perhaps that might have worked yesterday, but today I'm here for the detail. I think it's only fair that we get the detail from Rob on his view, else we're left making assumptions on his behalf.

Fair enough – 'scuse the Friday morning flippancy.

In before "don't look at me, it's the tech wonks' job to work that out"

Perhaps that might have worked yesterday, but today I'm here for the detail. I think it's only fair that we get the…

So tell me Rob, how will detection and enforcement work in your thinking?

In before "don't look at me, it's the tech wonks' job to work that out"...

what he said, but I'm thinking secret police, explosives, water boarding (© USA), derogatory comments, and stern eyebrows, failing that probably something…

So tell me Rob, how will detection and enforcement work in your thinking?

In before "don't look at me, it's the tech wonks' job to work that out"...

One way or another people are saying they are not prepared to go back to the old model and not prepared to tie themselves in red tape, when a simpler way is to just ignore the impacted industries.

no ones back at a previous model yet. ie an enforceable controlled…

I think society or part of it is saying "I don't understand why it isn't free, and you can't stop me so why should I stop".

Or perhaps they think that the work they are doing in copying the file makes it theirs, or they're cynical coz they didn't like…

"then what you do isn't wrong in your mind."

Society is saying they don't want to be burdened by the costs of an artificial enforcement model,

That's an interesting reading of the situation jon.
I think society or part of it is saying "I don't understand why it isn't free, and you can't stop me so why should I…

if that's the case the nice (natural law) way to behave regarding copyright is to observe and respect it. apparently that's not going to happen without enforcement so the whole natural law argument seems to fall over.

The enforcement model seems to have been broken. Society is saying they don't…

did anyone give an explanation for this "natural" aspect that keeps getting referred to?

Yep.

But I can't explain it to you because that would be sharing my ideas which, quite frankly, belong to me, so piss off.

This also explains why I have been unable to use your, seemingly…

It's that they don't think copyright rights actually extend as far as you do in the first place.

I don't necessarily think they do or don't, i'm just contemplating the reasons the extend as far as they do and consequently at present don't extend any further.

my other motivation was…

Robbery, if it helps my impression was the difference between you and others isn't that they think it's okay to undermine people's property rights or that they shouldn't be enforced.

It's that they don't think copyright rights actually…

I'm trying to find out what it is you're after with this line of questioning.

haha, makes it sound like an interrogation.
establishing what property is.

Rob Stowell asked a good question re this natural law argument and I didn't see it answered, and reading through though laws as written…

Should we consider the act of copying a file as work? Therefore if an individual copies the file, it's therefore his/her property.

I don't think you and I haveterribly differing views regarding copying music without consent as the lesser form of theft referred…

Al-Maturidi gives the example of stealing which is known to be evil by reason alone due to man's working hard for his property.

so is the definition of property something that you work hard for and is stealing the abuse of said hard worked for property?

coming from the guy who has waxed lyrical about all manner of non copyright relevant things

Yeah, perh..definately... but here I was trying to regain a bit of focus and determine what your question is really about.

The usual places have information on Natural laws...and I might in my wisdom…

but fail to see it's relevance regarding getting anywhere on this.

that's irony right there jon, (coming from the guy who has waxed lyrical about all manner of non copyright relevant things :))

The relevance is it was used as an argument against IP but not substantiated. ie not a…

I…

did anyone give an explanation for this "natural" aspect that keeps getting referred to? Ip apparently not natural in the slightest.

I get Rob's question/statement in pointing out the irony, but fail to see it's relevance regarding getting anywhere on this.

Is there some sort of natural model that applies

did anyone give an explanation for this "natural" aspect that keeps getting referred to? Ip apparently not natural in the slightest.

As Islander says the "dreaded bureacracy".

Now I'm not entirely advocating the free markets, that would…

Jon Knox – I've never wanted to be omnipotent (omniscience is another matter, but would probably result in terminal sadness) but person I definitely am...tentacular, entomnivorous,also really odd tastes in music (Cooder to Segovia to Gregorian chant), but a definite person...

The only reason…

Does that make me weird.

umm, only if you want it to.

AK 79 live (x3)

$62 a gig, probably realistic and compares to a theatre ticket which is probably pretty close to what you'll be seeing :)
$21700 per gig split between bands, players, venue, ticket agents and production costs.
I'd like to see someone in chch or dunners try that price.…

the word rich may well not be in my list of words I use when talking about music. it kinda seems irrelevant.

That was my reaction to you saying that "nobody makes any money out of touring" my point was they do but not heaps.

if someone puts on a…

You seem to have the impression that if someone plays music then they have a right to get rich.

nup, pretty sure I didn't say that anywhere in my posts, no comments about getting rich the pursuit of getting rich or anyone who has got rich. the word rich may…

Aren,t they advertising?

yep, posters are really expensive to up up these days. something like $1.50 per A3 and a lot more for bigger sizes. that's more than it costs to print them but if you don't pay the poster cartels your poster is wiped out.

If they get out…

they all did them for reasons completely separate from money. none of em thought they were going to see any cash, just hoped it would come near breaking even. which they did, sort of.

headless chooks aren't doing it for the cash, although they're pretty careful to not be paying…

Toto is an example of a band that was not so much hung up on Live performance (perhaps initially....or perhaps they were simply trying to pay the bills whilst trying to make being a musician work for them).
I think the world is a much richer place for the likes…

And those are the ones I admire, so maybe that is the whole point? RESPECT

you admire people who get shafted?
I get the whole support the underdog thing but wow, I don't know that I'd want to pay the entry fee to join that club, not that I don't…

Also music stuff for me is all about seeing it live, (Neil Young yay!!!)

I agree with her and I disagree. And it reminds me of something that Robbery said heaps earlier.

The comment amount the 2 different types of animal, between playing live and recording. And the…

And aren't they also reforming because their audience has money now?

did you miss my bit about how they're not seeing a dime of anything?
I know this cos I was responsible for a good 3 reforms in the last couple of years and all of those reforms cost the…

I thought "Yup, time to go back to work, (free) lunch is over.

you think they're reforming to make money? hahahahaha, good one.
They're reforming cos they've gone through the mid life crisis and are looking for what made their lives valid when they was youff.
They're als reforming cos…

histories riddled with stories of the simply good who got shafted.

And those are the ones I admire, so maybe that is the whole point? RESPECT

law of the jungle is the fittest,

Well "jungle" survival is another kettle of fish. It is civilisation that is constantly proving greed doesn't work.Look…

I know you are, but you seem to be stuck to the concept that piracy is definitely doing dreadful damage to the music industry.

Ah, no..I'm on record here and at a multitude of places saying quite the opposite. It's you that's assuming that I'm saying that. If you go…

you keep singing the same song,

I'm with jon on this one, I don't do the singy thing.

I would be able to unload the next lot of ideas and probably get a better sleep

way to side step an easy question sofie. I got to use that technique myself,…

See that is where I just dont fit in.

why do you have to fit in?
can it not be "C'est la Vie" for you and "I need to pay for what it took for me to create this for someone else. you don't have to fit in but others…

That,s all really.Creativity for me is not about protection.

but you wouldn't deny protection to those who did need it?

its often mis read that stronger copyright means everyone is going to enforce their tighter controls over their work, and lets face it most creative types are kinda .......cruisy as…

he could have if mark hadn't already sampled it and released it under his own name as an original work. now the onus is on jon to prove he came up with it first and that mark willfully plagerised,

That's about where I don't fit in. My difficulty is this…

I reckon jon could copyright that. ;)

he could have if mark hadn't already sampled it and released it under his own name as an original work. now the onus is on jon to prove he came up with it first and that mark willfully plagerised,

sofie, nice of you…

you started off so well (9 tenths of the way through the convo), and then you went all abstract on us jon.

I blame the ponies.. :)

went all abstract on us jon.

I reckon jon could copyright that. ;)

Perhaps we need to close out the thread.

you started off so well (9 tenths of the way through the convo), and then you went all abstract on us jon.

I smell drugs

A startlingly frank admission there from Robbery...If you're only "smelling" drugs, you're probably quite like people that are talking to their drugs (you know the crowd that "just say 'No' to drugs"), which means you're not sufficiently lucid enough to really need them.

Steve wrote:…

Anyone else got a vision of how things might work?

Jon, not sure if you found your way to the earlier parts of the thread, where I made a suggestion which I later summarised thus:

I've proposed a substantial IP bank (which is really a specialist economic development agency)…

Looks like a bubble is a possible answer.

Not wanting to reactivate debate about the music industry, but wasn't there some discussion here recently about the impact of the "baby blip" on crime levels during the 1990s?

Anyone else got a vision of how things might work?

but you seem to be stuck to the concept that piracy is definitely doing dreadful damage to the music industry. You state it as fact, but don't produce the numbers to back that up.
Simon produced real world examples and you ignore them.

"sorry mate, i know you SAY you're…

Considering I'm actually agreeing with parts of what you say that's an odd thing to say

Mark replied:

I know you are...

Choice...Am I ever glad that I'm not the only omnipotent person on this thread....I don't believe Islander is a person, though she is undoubtably omnipotent…

I am sort of over the whole trying to quantify the economic consequences of the change to the music industry. To make this estimate anywhere near vaguely correctly we'd need a really sophisticated model, in which we could dial-in all sorts…

Considering I'm actually agreeing with parts of what you say that's an odd thing to say

I know you are, but you seem to be stuck to the concept that piracy is definitely doing dreadful damage to the music industry. You state it as fact, but don't produce the numbers…

As for FFD, I never said that there couldn't be breakthroughs, just that it's so much harder than it was because of the little musical ghettos.

although a quick check of the NZ album chart would indicate that it may be easier now than at any time in the past.…

Therefore. That song you are listening to cannot be mine.

Actually, you can prove a negative.

Well of course you can.
ie. "I am not not here" logically it means "I am here"
But the statement was "you can't prove a negative"
ie." it is not true that I am not here"
Both statements are double negatives, conradictions.
I think…

do they own the patent for nails as granted to them by law?

Why should they?
And let's say the plans for the house were copyright of, say, Initial homes for instance. Would I be breaking any law if I built my house to those plans? (assuming I didn't copy…

where once they would have listened to a much wider range because the outlets

my personal findings on this have been completely the opposite. people are more open to a wider range of sounds now, and 25 years ago were even more niche in their tastes.
I know I was.…

Fair enough. I'd ask that you actually observe and analyse what the industry is saying, rather than accept and repeat it as "fact"

Considering I'm actually agreeing with parts of what you say that's an odd thing to say

Umm, firstly you can't prove a negative and secondly, this is…

"nail manufactures association" have a right to charge me for the use of a concept?

do they own the patent for nails as granted to them by law?

a key part of my point is what has public good got to do with it if you don't apply it equally to all areas of your society.

We, sort of, do.
Say I want to build a house and I decide to make my own nails. Does the "nail manufactures…

Robbery's concept of longer periods of copyright seems, to my mind, to negate the "public good"

a key part of my point is what has public good got to do with it if you don't apply it equally to all areas of your society.
reclaiming oil reserves would help the…

If you can't prove your point, stop making it.

Simon has proved his point. He's stated real world examples of piracy around him, and that attitude that allows it to expand, ie the poeple doing it don't even think they're breaking a law, simpley because it is so far from…

there's even room for Mark to do a terribly self-indulgent accordion solo at the end

Excuse me, my instrument's a theremin (I reason that a) the less I touch it, the less I can screw it up and b) you can't tell if I'm in tune anyway) but I'll agree…

I'm sorry Mark, I know it's simply throwing a negative in here, without the precise evidence you require, but, since you can't provide the evidence that piracy is not hurting sales, from personal experience, I'm stating it as a fact that artists are losing money from piracy.

Umm, firstly you…

Imagine RIAA, MPAA in Control of Handbag Industry

that was a really bad analogy, and they lumped the 2 media together.
films have zones, but music doesn't.
and its not about sharing handbags its about copying them so in this analogy it would be letting their friends manufacture an exact…

you clearly haven't heard me sing

That's no problem, I'm a terrible listener. If all we're aiming to do is better the current anthem, there's even room for Mark to do a terribly self-indulgent accordion solo at the end....I had overlooked his important role in my initial vision/seizure.

My guess…

Jon, you clearly haven't heard me sing. And oh I wish I had the time or connections for that sort of research.

Simon, how come you are travelling so much these days (if that's not to intrusive to ask)?