Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Does My Mortgage Look Like a Slag in This?

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  • Stewart,

    Aw c'mon Megan, deserves is a bit of an overstatement. I can understand where you are coming from but it is still a bit of a stretch to claim that ALAC is indicating that those behaviours deserve that sort of outcome.

    Te Ika A Maui - Whakatane… • Since Oct 2008 • 577 posts Report Reply

  • bronwyn,

    There is some responsibility on us all to minimise our likelihoods of becoming a victim.

    Stewart, I know what you are saying, but all too often (to me, at least) it feels like that all the responsibility is on "us" and none on the people that are making other people feel unsafe - when was the last time you saw an ad that said "Hey! don't go out and get drunk because it might make you more liable to turn into a nong and not take no for an answer"?

    tamaki makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 86 posts Report Reply

  • Stewart,

    Bronwyn, you are quite right and I agree with you, but having been in a few scary situations myself I remain unconvinced that the sort of nongs that perpetrate the assaults/rapes are going to take any notice of tv ads.

    If you recognise that fact then you can appreciate why the potential victim is the one being appealed to.
    Not saying it's right...

    Te Ika A Maui - Whakatane… • Since Oct 2008 • 577 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    There is some responsibility on us all to minimise our likelihoods of becoming a victim.

    Up to a point, Stewart. When I lived in Palmerston North (on the fringes of Highbury, if that means anything to you), the house I was sharing was burgled three times.

    Was I and my flatmates irresponsible for not having the means to install deadbolts on every window, deadlocks on every door and buy a state of the art alarm system?

    Is owning 'nice stuff' some kind of incitement to be robbed when you live in a rough part of town?

    Or, as a society, do we put ownership for crimes against property squarely on the perpetrators not the victims?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    @stewart

    Yeah, Ok, there's some hyperbole in that statement. But I, and a lot of people, felt that the Lisa ad was unnecessarily victim blaming, and are still, like Craig said, frustrated by ALAC's refusal to acknowledge the complaints.

    Like Danielle said up the thread, most women don't need to be reminded the world is a biig dark scary misogynist place, and it would be nice, once in a while to see a campaign targetting the perpetrators of violence, rather than the victims of it.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    deserves is a bit of an overstatement

    I like to compare the ALAC rape ad to the one with the dude who swings his kid against the bookcase and ends up in the alley crying. You probably feel a bit of empathy for that dude, right? But you also think 'well, it's his own fault for being so drunk he couldn't judge distance any more. He hurt his kid.' You transfer that analysis to the rape ad and the underlying reasoning is the same. 'I feel terrible for her, but it's her own fault for getting so drunk she couldn't fend off a rapist. She hurt herself.'

    Except she didn't. The rapist is the person who bears the responsibility for raping her. So I totally get what Megan is saying.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Stewart,

    Craig, I'm all in favour of putting all the reposnsibility for crimes like burglary, robbery, assault & rape at the perpetrators' doors. But I certainly don't intend to make myself or my property look like an easy and satisfying target for the low-life scum that we are talking about.

    I have a poor enough view of our species to believe that there is a small but not unimportant minority who are either amoral or sociopathic and who commit the majority of these types of crime. They are not amenable to social coercion or other liberal-type persuasion to change their ways and conform to society's expectations so I tend to make it as unlikely as possible for me to become their victim.

    When I was younger I didn't perceive the risk so highly and I used to get absolutely munted and I got a few beatings in my time. Some for being a mouthy pisshead but some for nothing other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time and representing an easy target. I took it as a lesson (eventually) and developed my current attitude.

    Te Ika A Maui - Whakatane… • Since Oct 2008 • 577 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    We're not in charge of how you act around a corselette: *you are*.

    My APB controls all my actions.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4458 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    I don't know why the discussion often (not here so far, but) ends up being about what the victim of the harassment or assault could have done differently

    It's about control. It feels very much like you have no control over the perpetrator so the reaction is to try and take control of your own actions.
    It's the same reason more folks are afraid of flying than driving, because when you fly someone else is in control and when you drive you are in control.

    In both cases the feeling (while real) is wrong. It is not safer to drive and it is not the responsibility of the victim to change.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4458 posts Report Reply

  • JoJo,

    being in the wrong place at the wrong time and representing an easy target.

    It has seemed to me, though, that just the very fact of my having a vagina ("down there" as my doctor said last week) makes me in the wrong place at the wrong time. There have been a number of times when I've been walking somewhere at night, alone or with friends, and been approached by groups of men who didn't really care whether we wanted to meet them. We were targets. Easy or not.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2008 • 95 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    It's the same reason more folks are afraid of flying than driving, because when you fly someone else is in control and when you drive you are in control.

    Being ten thousand feet in the freaking air might also play a part.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    there does not seem to be a story they cannot creatively publicise with a T-shirt stretched winningly across a pert pair of tits.

    I'm betting they have a really talented creative director.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4458 posts Report Reply

  • Bruce Thorpe,

    I read anything about Valerie Vilii...

    Winchel and Take 5, crossword, Slade ...

    dammit might as well check Clifton, Easton ...

    the breaking point usually comes about Ralston

    or yet another pile of uninspiration from one Hill or other ...

    getting really pissed with myself ...

    I hate addiction, at least when its mine ...

    maybe the alcohol coverage looks worthy ...

    Jesus Christ what an attitude ... the journalist is a woman and presumably young ....

    fuck ...

    the Listener has joined the shock jock market ...

    time for this superannuant to make a cut in his budget.

    Hokianga • Since May 2007 • 52 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    In both cases the feeling (while real) is wrong.

    Indeed, and what bothers me about this 'careful ladies' attitude is that it's wrong. Factually. Where are women most likely to be assaulted, no matter how they're dressed or how much they've had to drink? At home. And which group is most likely, statistically, to be on the receiving end of a stranger-assault on the side of the road? MEN. Yet where are the 'careful gentlemen, if you get drunk you might get punched in the face' ads?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    There is some responsibility on us all to minimise our likelihoods of becoming a victim.

    I don't think the message is 'be careful', I think it's 'be afraid'. When you make a decision about what to wear or where to park or where to go, make it out of fear. Not walking anywhere after dark is not, to my mind, a reasonable precaution, but an unreasonable restraint, but that's where some (young, capable) women are ending up, because of the constant message that doing quite normal things is irresponsibly risky.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    As a slight aside - if there are any women on here who are interested in doing self-defence classes*, I can recommend these guys.

    They were running women-only classes at the beginning of this year, and will probably do so again if there is enough interest.

    There is a 2-day women's self-defence seminar tentatively scheduled for early next year.

    *obviously this sort of thing shouldn't be necesary, but hope for the best and prepare for the worst, etc.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Being ten thousand feet in the freaking air might also play a part.

    In a *metal tube*. At *insane speeds*. Using scientific principles *I don't understand*. Knowing that if something goes wrong you are almost automatically *doomed to death*.

    Ahem. Yes, I take heavy doses of prescription drugs to fly. Why do you ask? :)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Where are women most likely to be assaulted, no matter how they're dressed or how much they've had to drink? At home. And which group is most likely, statistically, to be on the receiving end of a stranger-assault on the side of the road? MEN. Yet where are the 'careful gentlemen, if you get drunk you might get punched in the face' ads?

    Thank you.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19706 posts Report Reply

  • Kate Hannah,

    I was still buying the listener - more as a historic tic then anything else - but after this week's middle class panic discourse - and the totally offensive story you've so astutely summarised Emma - I'm going to end it all. After 20 or so years of reading - my parents were middle class liberals, what can i say - I'm going to stop the one non-virtual media form we still engaged with. (Herald subscription cancelled some years ago due to increasing tory tabloidisation). My husband hasn't actually picked up the listener since Steve Braunias left. And as for the internaut . . . . hoo boy don't get me started.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2009 • 1 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    In a *metal tube*. At *insane speeds*. Using scientific principles *I don't understand*. Knowing that if something goes wrong you are almost automatically *doomed to death*.

    In fact I'm pretty sure I would be even more freaked if I was driving that thing. (I'm flying home in less than a month. Yippee.)

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Stevens,

    I feel sorry for Braunias being exiled to the crappy canvas, but he's the only thing worth reading in that whole "magazine" even if he can be a grumpy sod at times.

    The Listener, I cancelled my sub a while back and don't miss it.

    And as for Emma's original post - yes!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 230 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    I don't think the message is 'be careful', I think it's 'be afraid'. When you make a decision about what to wear or where to park or where to go, make it out of fear.

    Seems though
    anywhere can be dangerous

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    anywhere can be dangerous

    Does that article sound suspiciously like the police officers were the ones doing the beating? Or am I just a cynical person?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Yet where are the 'careful gentlemen, if you get drunk you might get punched in the face' ads?

    To be fair, there's the bloke-in-a-bar who gets tanked, lashes out at a barmaid who bumps his jug and gets a right old kicking -- subsequently frightening the hell out of his little daughter when he somehow gets home.

    But that is a wee bit different.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22825 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    But that is a wee bit different.

    Yeah, because the Lisa version of that ad would go something like this. Guy goes out with his mates, they're getting tanked, having a good time. Through the evening he gradually gets separated from them. Then because he's so tanked he, say, trips over someone's shoe, and gets the living shit beaten out of him by a group of obviously sober guys. Then at the end they say "It's not the drinking, it's how we're drinking."

    Not an impossible situation by any stretch, but perhaps a slightly uncomfortable message?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

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