"The Terrorism Files"

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  • dubmugga,

    How credible are these people who were bugged and quoted out of context ? Compare that to how many broken electoral promises or back pedaling politicians do every other day ? Imagine tapping some of their phones or being privy to their dunken conversations. ?

    To be honest I'm more worried about the exclusive brethren and the rotary club than state funded maori radicals.

    But let's face it though, we're a nation of insecure shit talkers with Maori being as good as the next guy and no one should read too much into what we all say.

    As for the bush training camps. Running round in camos firing off live rounds and pretending you're Che Guevara sounds like a great way to spend a weekend.

    Yeah sure there should have been some sort of police response but a simple word in the right ear woulda done it i reckon.

    I'm still calling overkill.

    the back of your mind • Since Nov 2006 • 257 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    are they really any different from what would be heard if the Police bugged any one of the numerous gangs in NZ?

    I don't really think gang members (or gun clubs) spend their down time daydreaming about blowing up petrol stations or murdering people to 'get used to killing'. But if they do then I'm happy for the police to keep an eye on them too.

    My perception is that the police tried to have it both ways here - they were in the unhappy position of either safeguarding the public and conducting their raids before they had concrete evidence of a plot, or continuing to monitor their activities until they had enough proof to press charges under the TSA, leaving open the possibility that these idiots would go out and hurt someone. They've rather clumsily tried to do both and it hasn't worked out.

    I'd argue that the police have done Lockett, Iti and the rest of these jackasses a favour - it was only a matter of time before they managed to blow themselves up, drench one another in napalm or accidentally shoot each other.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Graeme, really.

    The word "war" is much misused, but it describes a state of affairs very, very far from anything that 17 radicals armed with Lion Red, petrol and bolt-action rifles could achieve. Prosecuting for treason on that basis would be like prosecuting a kid for attempted murder for attacking his brother with a blunt pencil.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Is that it?

    I'm sure if you bugged the National Front, or indeed a group of policemen off on a hunting or rugby trip, you'd hear all this and worse

    Really? If that's your take, I give up.

    If a group of off-duty policemen were shown to have discussed killing people for practice (let alone having secretly acquired and trained with weapons) I would expect them at the very least to be thrown out of the force.

    And so, I submit, would you.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Compare that to how many broken electoral promises or back pedaling politicians do every other day ? Imagine tapping some of their phones or being privy to their dunken conversations. ?

    I could have sworn a book of them showed up a little while ago, no? I don't recall reading about Don Brash tossing around the idea of killing a few people to get his game up for knocking off Helen.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Really? If that's your take, I give up.

    Quite. When the did left decide that being no worse than the National Front was a badge of merit?

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Gareth has pre-made two of my points about this being the sort of stuff that you want the police to step in and interrupt, and how the Dom's claim that this won't affect the trials is a pile of rubbish.

    I think it's a shame that we're not seeing this in a proper court setting rather than in a paper. In a court we would see the whole document, rather than the Dom's cherry picking. I think it'd be difficult for context to make this look much better, but if we had the context then that would be conclusive rather than just guesswork. It would also put it into a contested process between defense and prosecution, so it could be challenged if appropriate.

    Stuff doesn't seem to say how the Dom got these documents. Does the paper copy say any more? Were they at the hearing on October 10 but it was suppressed? Or were these leaked to them? There's ongoing questions about the police leaks - is this another part of that tale, or are they not involved in this one?

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I think it's worth noting that when the Digital Summit is staged later this month, it will feature Riaka Hiakita of the Tuhoe Educational Authority, whose brilliant, education-oriented Tuhoe.com project has begun to connect 2000 homes with a wireless internet network. It's being carried out with funding and.or assistance from MED, the Ministry of Education, the 20/20 Trust and Waikato University.

    That guy's a hero. The people the police were bugging are, at best, dangerous fuckwits more in love with their own homicidal fantasies than with the future of their young people.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Stuff doesn't seem to say how the Dom got these documents. Does the paper copy say any more? Were they at the hearing on October 10 but it was suppressed? Or were these leaked to them? There's ongoing questions about the police leaks - is this another part of that tale, or are they not involved in this one?

    There was a fascinating discussion on Kathryn Ryan's show just now, which made it clear that the affadavit has actually been quite widely circulated amongst interested parties. So it's probably a police source, but it might well not have been.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Brian Boyko,

    I don't think we're getting the full picture and context from the Dominion Post excerpts.

    Without context, it's impossible to tell if the threats were genuine. Not to borrow legal defenses from "My Cousin Vinny," but what if they were being sarcastic? Sarcasm does not show up well in text or transcripts - it can only be inferred from the context.

    I think the police may have had a justified reaction - but my gut tells me that the raids were an overreaction that scooped up innocent people in with the possibly guilty.

    Austin, Texas - U.S. • Since Nov 2007 • 1 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    I wonder if in a year or two the accused will not be convicted of any crime (what fair trial could there be now?). But a member of the Police & Press are behind bars?

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    "When the did left decide that being no worse than the National Front was a badge of merit?"

    Who said it was? The NF have only ever been brought up in the context that they don't get the same treatment.

    On the face of it, I think the police were right to do something. Whether they what they did was done right is a different question, which itself hinges on things we still don't know and may never know. I don't see today's new as actually completing/solving/answering anything very much other than telling us why the police felt compelled to do something.

    I'm really worried that we will end up with more draconian laws we don't need, and a policing/intelligence approach we don't need.

    I too am very interested in who is leaking.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Prosecuting for treason on that basis would be like prosecuting a kid for attempted murder for attacking his brother with a blunt pencil.

    Ah yes, but you see, I watched West Wing episode 2-16 Somebody's going to emergency, somebody's going to jail last night".

    **Donna**: It was people pushing paper around fifty years ago. Why does it matter?
    Sam: It was high treason, and it mattered a great deal! This country is an idea, and one that's lit the world for two centuries and treason against that idea is not just a crime against the living! This ground holds the graves of people who died for it, who gave what Lincoln called the last full measure of devotion. Of fidelity. You understand the last full measure of devotion to... Treason against them is...

    ... and am still tingling :-)

    I'm not saying there was enough evidence to convict anyone of treason. Or even enough to charge anyone with it, but it's something I'd have advised to cops to consider looking at, in the same way they looked at terrorism.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    The idea that nutters with bombs, military delusions and a warped view of the world must be stopped before they kill innocent people sounds more like an argument for assassinating George Bush.

    Not Key and Clark though (he adds hastily, for any surveilling cops).

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1330 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Then again, Graeme, there are some of us who think 'traitor' is a label that should be applied with as care as 'terrorist'. And every time I hear Ron Mark 'hypothetically' open his mouth, that conviction only becomes more firm.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    There was a line in an Elvis Costello song & later on a movie of the last guy hanged in England. For the phrase "Let him have it Chris" & Chris shot the cop.
    Did he intend the cop to be shot or pass the pistol over?

    Our language can be quite brutal and war can mean struggle as in a war on poverty.

    Christ. This ain't "Eats, Shoots and Leaves". Some of the stuff that Dom has published you could maybe say was just 'talk' and people shooting off their mouths about a bunch of crap.

    However I'd struggle to find either of the following something that you could say unless you were pretty serious:

    "You know like the IRA in England ... it's gonna happen here ... I'm ready to die, mate. I'm gonna hurt this country, I've had a gutsful ... I wanna leave this planet making sure that I've done a f...... huge amount of harm to this country."
    Suspect recorded on bugged phone, May 26, 2006.

    "It'd have to be a, some sort of f......, sudden f......, because what it'll do, it'll come down on the thinking of the people, they'll think it's al Qaeda ... It's gotta be sudden and it's gotta be brutal."
    Other suspect says: "Don't piss around with cities or doing the bush thing ... just go to Parliament."
    Two suspects in bugged vehicle, August 17, 2007.

    Personally I found the story 'The trail that led to armed raids' more disturbing. Moving from camp to camp and never training in the same place. Code names out of Reservoir Dogs. Avoiding words that give away what they're doing, but are instead metaphors. Feels to me like the things you do when you're serious about something.

    I'm sure if you bugged the National Front, or indeed a group of policemen off on a hunting or rugby trip, you'd hear all this and worse.

    I have no idea what the National Front talk about on their get togethers, but police officers don't talk about assassinating Prime Ministers on or off duty. And if one did, he or she wouldn't be a cop for long, and other repercussions might follow.

    For my part I 'm intrigued by the comments and the response. Certainly the comments are worrying and suggest illegal activity, but are they really any different from what would be heard if the Police bugged any one of the numerous gangs in NZ?

    I think the comparison with a gang is pretty weak Hayden. I have no idea what this group thought they were doing, but obviously part of the police concern was that the people who were doing this talk were 1. of a nature by their previous history of taking action to support their beliefs (ie, they're activists, they're not just about talk, they have a history of doing things); and 2. actively pursuing training and the stockpiling of weapons which indicated preparation.

    I don't know what goes on inside gang headquarters, but if a gang started building up weapons and undergoing paramilitary training and talking about killing prominent people in a reasonably serious way, the police would ramp things up a lot.

    I was thinking about what our reaction would have been if this had happened 10 years ago when we were both in the thick of these very movements. You know we both would have been pretty sick for someone to take 'our' issues in this direction.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Who said it was? The NF have only ever been brought up in the context that they don't get the same treatment.

    When people start trying to put severity of what was said in context by claiming that it's no worse than the National Front then I have to wonder. I always thought the left thought that the National Front was pretty damn repugnant.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • dubmugga,

    I don't recall reading about Don Brash tossing around the idea of killing a few people to get his game up for knocking off Helen.

    Who knows what was said in private or what the real agenda of the brethren are and were it printed would you have believed it anyway ?

    If a group of off-duty policemen were shown to have discussed killing people for practice (let alone having secretly acquired and trained with weapons) I would expect them at the very least to be thrown out of the force.

    Isn't it standard practise in their training to be shown and discuss how to kill people ? So maybe a few of them get together in the weekends get on the piss and get their boy toys out. Would you reall expect them to get shunted from the force ?

    I think not.

    the back of your mind • Since Nov 2006 • 257 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    "Just wait till he visits somewhere and just blow them"

    Well that worked for the republicans with Clinton ;-)

    But on a more serious note

    D.P. "October: Intercepts suggest another camp on October 12-13.

    October 10: Police file 156-page affidavit to Manukau District Court seeking search warrants.

    October 15: Armed police execute series of raids."

    Why didn't they go in on the 12-13th? and catch them "red handed" and get real evidence of military training? rather than going in 2 days later and photographing women and children going about their rightful everyday lives.

    On the subject of firearms. It is an offence to suply weapons to someone without a firearms licence. Also you can have your licence revoked if the police suspect that your firearms might fall into the hands of someone who is not a "fit and proper person"

    27Revocation and surrender of firearms licence




    (1)Where, in the opinion of a commissioned officer of Police,—




    (a)Any person who has been issued with a firearms licence is not a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm or airgun; or




    (b)Access to any firearm or airgun in the possession of the person to whom a firearms licence has been issued is reasonably likely to be obtained by any person—




    (i)Whose application for a firearms licence or for a permit under section 7 of the Arms Act 1958, or for a certificate of registration under section 9 of the Arms Act 1958 has been refused on the ground that he is not a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm or airgun; or




    (ii)Whose certificate of registration as the owner of a firearm has been refused under section 10 of the Arms Act 1958 on the ground that he is not a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm; or




    (iii)Whose firearms licence has been revoked on the ground that he is not a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm or airgun; or




    (iv)Who, in the opinion of a commissioned officer of Police, is not a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm or airgun—




    the commissioned officer of Police may, by notice in writing under his hand, revoke the firearms licence, and the person to whom that firearms licence has been issued shall upon demand surrender the licence to a member of the Police.




    (2)Any person may at any time surrender a firearms licence held by him.




    (3)Where a licence is revoked under subsection (1) of this section or surrendered under subsection (2) of this section, the person to whom the licence has been issued shall cease to be licensed to possess firearms, airguns, pistols, or restricted weapons by virtue of that licence or any endorsement on it.

    So the Dom Posts publishing of this "evidence" is prejudicial to the case regarding firearms as the public perception of the accused is more likley to be that they are not "fit and proper" people.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Maureen Jansen,

    sure a tap on the shoulder and take away any weapons - talk like this shud have licence & firearms revoked.

    But it is becoming clear the raid on Ruatoki was OTT.

    that's wot i think

    Rotorua • Since Nov 2006 • 16 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Sam: It was high treason, and it mattered a great deal!

    Sam always had, or wrote, the best lines. The President's speech near the end of 20 Hours in America Part II, even with the god stuff, gets to me.

    So maybe a few of them get together in the weekends get on the piss and get their boy toys out. Would you reall expect them to get shunted from the force ?

    Yeah, police are (supposed to be) held to a higher standard in a number of areas, including employment law. A lot of minor convictions will see a police officer fired.

    Talking about killing the Prime Minister would be brought up on conduct charges at the least. If it was judged to just be a stupid joke while on the piss, it'd probably be a written warning and a mark on your record. If it was judged to be anything serious (as the material in the Dom clearly is) it'd be dismissal, followed by criminal charges if appropriate.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    __I don't recall reading about Don Brash tossing around the idea of killing a few people to get his game up for knocking off Helen.__

    Who knows what was said in private or what the real agenda of the brethren are and were it printed would you have believed it anyway ?

    Does it occur to you that as you pour scorn on police evidence you're reserving the right to just make shit up for yourself?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Something that has troubled me from the start is that were was an odd absence of explicit denials, and now I think we can see why.

    You know, I'm beginning to agree with Bomber, which pains me, because I don't usually agree with Bomber.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Stevens,

    What a group of NF nutters or off-duty cops might or might not say is totally beside the point here.

    What matters is what was being said by this group. And that is cause enough for concern.

    And even though Tuhoe have had the focus on them at Ruatoki, isn't it correct (if my memory serves me) that most of those arrested were not Tuhoe, or even Maori? I'd like clarification on that please anyone.

    Yes, the underlying root causes of all this matter, and need to be addressed, but the idea that this type of planning (if that's what it was) can go unremarked, and even be brushed off by some people here just strikes me as amazingly naive.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 230 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    to be honest
    i'm not surprised,

    there was obviously something, and clearly it was idiots talking out of their arses.


    if the police hadn't been such fuck ups with arrests and raids, i suspect public symathy would not be with those arrested.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

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