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Speaker: A Disorderly Brexit

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  • John Palethorpe,

    If anything, Labour have completely swept aside the pound plummeting, the UK credit rating dropping and the Tory leadership contest - and they still think they're doing the right thing.

    At a moment of complete crisis, they imploded. How very, very disappointing.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    The point is, Labour MPs are desperate to smear Corbyn and are resorting to desperate stuff like this,

    Why do you think they are so desperate to smear him?

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Yes, that's the issue.

    Thanks

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2933 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Why do you think they are so desperate to smear him?

    Because he makes them look bad by actually being left wing. The malcontents are Blair acolytes.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2933 posts Report Reply

  • simon g, in reply to nzlemming,

    Only half-true.

    Corbyn has been attacked constantly by the right-wing tabloids, by Blairites, by all manner of opponents, in bad faith. AND …

    Corbyn has shown himself to be pretty bad at his job.

    Being attacked by the bad guys doesn’t automatically make a leader good. It’s a reason to want to support him, but not enough to make his performance worthy of that support.

    cf David Cunliffe, alas.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1330 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Oh, because they really really really didn't expect him to win in the first place and he's had about as much full throated support as Colin Craig.

    They have spent the last ten months preparing for an opportune moment. The Oldham & Bassetlaw by-election was supposed to be the moment, as were the local Council elections.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    The Chilcot Report is about to come out. I would speculate that those Blairites keen on a coup regardless of the Brexit outcome (so those pushing the 24th as a date for a while before the campaign and result) would rather Labour was not led by someone happy to call Blair a war criminal in a few weeks.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    Attachment

    The number of rejected votes is nowhere near enough to make a difference, being a tiny fraction of a percent.

    However, as the percentage of the community voting Remain rises, so does the percentage of rejected votes. So people voting Leave are better at putting a cross in a box. But most of this effect seems to be that people in London both voted strongly to remain and were very bad at putting a cross in a box (London is the upper right). The Scots for example were pro Remain and far more meticulous.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • frank stark, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Hi Ian:

    Actually it was just a smutty one-liner.

    But, seriously, I read all news text now with my hands in my pockets to prevent me reaching for my gun - or at least a blue pencil.

    nz • Since Nov 2006 • 6 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Basically, the UK establishment rely on Labour as their plan B. When the Tories become too toxic, a Blair-style figure can get in and put a new face on the same policies.

    Corbyn's destroyed this insurance policy and that's what they're terrified of - an actual left-wing government

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to simon g,

    Corbyn has been attacked constantly by the right-wing tabloids, by Blairites, by all manner of opponents, in bad faith. AND …

    Corbyn has shown himself to be pretty bad at his job.

    This is precisely my view, with added essence of Momentum anti-semitism (a distressingly common trend in the modern left-Left). The email received by anti-Corbyn Labour MP Jess Philips might have come from a mass-mail tool but it was creepy as fuck.

    And tbf, a New Zealand party leader facing that kind of abandonment by Parliamentary colleagues would have been gone by yesterday’s lunchtime.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I would add that there's pretty clearly a cynical Blairite gambit going on. I just don't think that's all it is.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Russell Brown,

    “Both vigorously deny the claims” – it’s not unheard of for organs like the Telegraph to just make shit up, you know. And there is an influential minority that conflate Zionism with Judaism and the Jewish race, allowing any criticism of Israel to be treated as anti-semetic.

    Corbyn won with three times the votes of the runner up, you know – it’s the MPs who are out of line. Do you think Labour should be run as a self-perpetuating entity (like the NZ National Party) where the MPs tell the members what to do?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to frank stark,

    Whip it good!

    Actually it was just a smutty one-liner.

    Doh!
    I geddit ( I was thinking you Wellingtonians call it the Dom)
    I'll plead a bad cold relapse for my cloth ears,
    everything else is blocked as well...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7944 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Russell Brown,

    This is precisely my view, with added essence of Momentum anti-semitism (a distressingly common trend in the modern left-Left).

    You're quoting the Torygraph, now?

    I'm not doubting that anti-semitism exists, yes even in the hallowed halls of Oxbridge, but isn't this like tarring John Key with every act committed by Slater or Farrar (okay, not the best choice, I admit, but you can't blame Key for every word out of Slater's mouth). How is Corbyn responsible for that?

    Does the British Labour party have a problem with racism? Probably, because Britain as a society has a problem with racism. When empires fall, the sins of the builders come back to haunt their descendants and the descendants don't like it. It's not good and it's not fair, but it's hardly all Corbyn's fault. The question to ask Benn and co is not "Did Corbyn not do enough?" but "Did all of you not do enough?"

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2933 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    I actually have no idea how accurate this outfit is but Italy, France, Denmark & Netherlands Call For EU Referendums

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2933 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to nzlemming,

    Some people in "Italy, France, Denmark & Netherlands Call For EU Referendums".
    Guess who?

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 496 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    This column from the Grauniad is good Britain faces leaderless turmoil. But don’t worry, Boris is back from the cricket

    Boris is no doubt waiting for some of Mrs Gove's "clever people" to sort it out for him.

    ETA Beautiful quote:

    "As for Labour, the rolling pageant of departures from Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, and the countermoves against them, frequently resembled an episode of Game of Thrones re-enacted by the Teletubbies."

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2933 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to John Farrell,

    Some people in "Italy, France, Denmark & Netherlands Call For EU Referendums".
    Guess who?

    Yeah, I know, and they're referencing the Express, so....

    But it has been cited as a concern for the EU in more sober journals, too.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2933 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Yeah, there's no winners in this - some of the language the anti-Blairite lot are using is verging on the stuff Tommy Mair was into when he murdered Labour MP Jo Cox earlier this month. Exterminate the Blairite Vermin and all that.

    You know, I don't think Corbyn's been great as Labour leader. I think he was never given a chance by the majority of his most experienced Parliamentary colleagues, and that hugely influenced his performance.

    I also believe that he attempted Big Tent politics, including those who actively disliked him for the appearance of unity - this led to his reshuffles taking over a week as he had to beg them to join. If he'd gone with his loyalists from the start, he'd have had an easier ride - particularly the multiple occasions he made a statement and was instantly contradicted by one of his own cabinet.

    But the fact the resignees were planning this before the Oldham by election and the Council elections - any opportunity for Corbyn to fail, and he didn't - puts me on his side of this.

    Add that to the fact that their opportunism means that now, with the Tories in disarray, they have turned it into an argument about how much Corbyn is to blame for the result.

    But I worry that this ends up with the party irreparably divided, broken and in a worse state than ever before. And that's after six years of opposition.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to simon g,

    Corbyn has shown himself to be pretty bad at his job

    Yes, but...

    - zero honeymoon period
    - little to no support from parliamentary/party apparatus
    - sections of the party actively working against him from day one
    - attempted a negotiation and consensus style of leadership, rather than confrontational
    - country is dealing with the biggest political shitstorm since ages ago.

    As I said earlier, wrong man at the wrong place and time. However, would it have been different at a different time?

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    But the fact the resignees were planning this before the Oldham by election and the Council elections - any opportunity for Corbyn to fail, and he didn't - puts me on his side of this.

    Add that to the fact that their opportunism means that now, with the Tories in disarray, they have turned it into an argument about how much Corbyn is to blame for the result.

    But I worry that this ends up with the party irreparably divided, broken and in a worse state than ever before. And that's after six years of opposition.

    Yeah, that the thing. My UK Labour support has gone from half-hearted, to 'you can fuck right off, you careerist, chancing shower of shit'.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Crimes of the Corbynites:
    - student activists being mildly nasty on Facebook

    Crimes of the Blairites
    - their leader organising to kidnap people and send them to Libya to be tortured

    Obviously, the Corbynites are way worse…

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    In the context of the moment though, extraordinary rendition isn't relevant.

    With Corbyn playing the straightest possible bat, giving the Blairites ANYTHING to with spin on to throw at him is dumb.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Caleb D'Anvers,

    I don't think Corbyn is anywhere nearly as incompetent as he's being portrayed. Just as I think Miliband would've been a really quite good Prime Minister. The issue here is media framing. The Tories have just presided over the greatest disaster in the country's history since WWII and we're talking about Corbyn?

    London SE16 • Since Mar 2008 • 482 posts Report Reply

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