OnPoint by Keith Ng

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OnPoint: Election 2011: GO!

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  • Keith Ng, in reply to Dismal Soyanz,

    then either they can create an asset in which the value created can be used to purchase the shares or they have to sell an existant asset – which is it?

    1) People can create wealth.
    2) People can use that wealth to buy things.

    People using wealth to buy things means that wealth cannot be used to buy other things (this is the concept of opportunity cost). Whether people choose to buy one thing or another has nothing to do with the amount of wealth that was created.

    Say you have $10k of cash sitting in the bank account. You buy $10k of shares in an SOE. Your total wealth is $10k. ($10k of shares)

    Say you have $10k of cash sitting in the bank account. You don’t buy anything. Your total wealth is $10k. ($10k of cash)

    Say you have $10k of cash sitting in the bank account. You borrow $10k and buy $10k of SOE shares with it. Your total wealth is $10k ($10k shares, $10k cash, minus $10k debt).

    You see what I’m getting at here?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 543 posts Report Reply

  • Keith Ng,

    I don't know why I'm arguing this anymore.

    A two party trade (NZ government & NZ public) of a good with a clearly defined monetary value (shares) is pretty close to a zero sum game, not factoring in the time value of money.

    Apart from time value of money arguments, I can't see how you can argue against this logic.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 543 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Keith Ng,

    Apart from time value of money arguments, I can’t see how you can argue against this logic.

    It's very powerful ;-)

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2935 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz,

    I'm not arguing about the value of the asset or how its distributed. I'm saying that if the proceeds from an asset sale were used to retire foreign debt and the equity was held by NZ residents, there would be a reduction in the outflow of the current account. The improvement in the current account makes us better off.

    I took your response as disagreeing with that, but rereading your posts, I'm not sure that you actually saw what I was trying to say. I agree that the sale of the shares does not change wealth. What I am saying is that over time there may be benefits to the current account through reduced interest payments to foreign lenders.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Dismal Soyanz,

    What I am saying is that over time there may be benefits to the current account through reduced interest payments to foreign lenders.

    Yes, probably. But the deficit is, largely, a private sector problem. Reducing government debt-related outflows doesn't deal to the 80-something percent of our foreign debt that is related to private borrowing for homes, cars, and big-screen TVs. Flogging off state assets to reduce state borrowing doesn't change that calculation, which is at least some of Keith's point.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to nzlemming,

    But going by that book, Wilce should not have been cleared

    Maybe, maybe not. The report into the affair was quite clear that nothing that came up in the review was so damning that Wilce absolutely wouldn't have been given clearance had it been discovered during his vetting. More than once the report said that the outcome of the vetting may not have been any different had the information come to light before clearance was granted, but that the failure to uncover it during vetting was a procedural lapse.

    Remember, you don't get a clearance because you're a saint. You get a clearance because the vetting agency have judged that you are not likely to be coerced or blackmailed into releasing classified material unlawfully, and that you're not likely to shoot your mouth off. Whatever embellishments were made to his personal history, we've seen no evidence that Wilce had personal vulnerabilities that made him a security risk.

    I just hope that Momentum has had all their government work reviewed. It's the recruiter's job to determine the candidate's suitability and verify their work history, not the job of the security services. NZSIS's role in all this was not to check that Wilce had, indeed, done the things he claimed, especially given how very historic many of them were; well outside the ordinary 10-year scope of security vetting.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Dismal Soyanz,

    if the proceeds from an asset sale were used to retire foreign debt

    I don't see that being proposed - only to reduce future borrowing for unspecified core assets which may or may not have productive revenue streams. Of course as mentioned upthread it's all the same giant obfuscation as this government's current borrowing somehow not being for tax cuts.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Reducing government debt-related outflows doesn't deal to the 80-something percent of our foreign debt that is related to private borrowing for homes, cars, and big-screen TVs.

    That as well.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Flogging off state assets to reduce state borrowing doesn’t change that calculation, which is at least some of Keith’s point.

    Agreed. (ETA: And I said as much as well).I was pointing out that Keith’s assertion that there is no benefit is only true if you are talking about wealth creation.

    I don’t see that (retiring debt) being proposed

    Yes – that was not Key’s proposal. But Keith raised it as a hypothetical.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    But the deficit is, largely, a private sector problem. Reducing government debt-related outflows doesn't deal to the 80-something percent of our foreign debt that is related to private borrowing for homes, cars, and big-screen TVs. Flogging off state assets to reduce state borrowing doesn't change that calculation, which is at least some of Keith's point.

    With apologies to Piggy Muldoon, the usual suspects wouldn't recognise a current account deficit if it kicked them in the balls. And regrettably, the only effective solution would probably come from Iceland. Or American sub-prime lenders, if my inner Machiavellian is to be believed.

    And OT, but not quite OT: what chance of the Pike River Royal Commission doing a Justice Mahon, given the increasing disillusionment of the next of kin?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5443 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    A one in one hundred year event is more than 50% likely to occur within a 70 year period. OTOH, there is around a 20% chance it will not happen in a given 160 year period.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    what chance of the Pike River Royal Commission doing a Justice Mahon, given the increasing disillusionment of the next of kin?

    hmm? You mean accusing Pike River management of collusion and "an orchestrated litany of lies"?

    The next-of-kin of the Pike River miners will not be satisfied with any ruling that doesn't hand them the head of someone living, on a plate. If the RC finds that all safety measures were adequate, and processes followed, and this was a nearly-unavoidable (I say nearly because there's always the "They should never have started mining there" argument) accident, that will be an unacceptable outcome. It may be the truth, but the families will not accept it.

    There's evidence out there that it's possible for a methane fissure to be ruptured and for ambient gas levels to go from safe to explosive in seconds; faster than the ventilation systems or intrinsic safety cut-outs on machinery can function. Pike River could have been caused by just such an event, and the only way to avoid it is to have never started mining the seam.

    It's also possible that there is, indeed, an orchestrated deception regarding the safety of operations at Pike River, and that the RC will uncover such. If that happens, the final act of the tragedy may be criminal trials. I get the impression that the next-of-kin want it to end that way, if only so that there's someone who the system has blamed.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    John Key's celebrity crushes The Uncut Unpublished Version - Sunday News

    Prime Minister John Key has revealed his celebrity crushes and says he's envious of Shane Warne's ongoing fling with a "hot" Liz Hurley.

    Key ­ who is married to his childhood sweetheart, Bronagh ­ opened up about what high-profile women set his heart aflutter on lowlife Tony Veitch's Radio Sport breakfast show on Friday following questions about his sporting idols.

    Proving he's a typical Kiwi bloke Key said that if he could be any sporting star he'd be an All Blacks masseur but added he wouldn't mind taking a swing at being Tiger Woods' woodman either.

    "Obviously for the money I would be doing the wild thing alongside Tiger. You get paid a truckload of money," he said, adding, "There are other benefits that clearly come with the job" too and I bet Barack and Tiger are related.

    The conversation took a sexy turn after Veitch asked the jovial PM if he'd like to be love-rat Warnie. "Yeah, well given his current liaisons with Liz Hurley," Key said.

    "I like Liz Hurley actually. I reckon she is hot." Key, who has two teenagers, Stephie and Max, admitted that Hurley was a "definite" in his dream date top three, adding that she's "slightly older".

    When asked who else was on his wish list Key said, "there are a range". He later said Sin City star "Jessica Alba looked pretty hot" despite her latest movie, Little Fockers, being "rubbish" and that Brad Pitt's squeeze, Angelina Jolie "is not too bad" either and a threesome would be a dream come true.

    Key also said he had cleared his things to do list of all the important items, which had included getting elected, meeting Obama, getting Gerry and Bill to do all the work whilst Rodney takes the blame, and letting the Maori Party blindside itself.

    Key mused that aside from the "hot list" all he had to do next was get re-elected and flog off the swag of SOE's owned by the tax payer - which wasn't really that important bearing in mind the economy is worth $180 billion and the effect of selling SOE's was negligible to him but wouild devistate the working poor, but hey lets do it anyway because that is what Nats do, we carry on with Rogers D’s great work. “Face it the taxpayers are in for a flogging”, he grinned to himself with hands in deep pockets well hidden from view.

    Veitch then inquired, "Who the PM would turn gay for" and Key replied "My childhood friend and confidant Keith Ng stole my lunch and my heart" and he would always "get my vote". Key praising Keith mentioned, "When the rough boys at school hung me up on the coat hooks by the back of my shorts or left me up turned in rubbish bins Keith always came to my rescue and then ate my lunch."

    While Key's comments might have been well received by Radio Sport's predominantly homosexual Sonny Boy Williams worshipping male audience of 12, they didn't impress veteran MP and women's rights campaigner Sue Kedgley.

    The four-term Green MP, who will stand down at the upcoming election, said Key's comments were boorish and unbecoming of a prime minister.

    "He is obviously trying to appeal to a SBW worshipping audience. "But it does sound a bit odd to be going on and on about women who are `hot', etc," she told Sunday News.

    "It is a bit stereotypical and rather odd, coming from a Prime Minister".

    "They do seem a little bit 1960s comments, rather than what you [would] expect in the 21st century"

    Kedgley also made mention that, “SBW doesn't deserve a place in the ABs and wasn't up to throwing the pass of the century that Ma'a Nonu threw against the Boks”, however she conceded that, “The SBW worshipping audience that Key was appealing to couldn’t see that Ma’a Nonu was better and also couldn’t fathom that Key was in fact the pixie he tried to make Goff out to be, face it those SBW Worshippers that make up the Tony Veitch audience of 12 are in denial.”

    On the other side of the airwaves, Veitch's rival breakfast host, former Kiwis league great Dean Lonergan said Key's comment had made him respect the PM’s economic ability even more. "John Key is a strong leader and a very good family man," the LiveSport host said, “he obviously reads all the women’s magazines and has been on the cover of the Listener, so he is genuine in his desire to give the working poor a flogging”.

    "Those women who might be upset at his comments are obviously just disappointed they never made John Key's things to do list and never will.

    "He's a normal man who expresses normal manly sentiments from time to time. I didn't hear the comments live to air, but I have no doubt they were said with a level of decency befitting any game show host."

    Key also used his weekly comment piece to fire a broadside at Labour leader Phil Goff, saying he was as inconsistent as the Black Caps who couldn’t hit a home run or pitch a curve ball.

    When asked why he felt the need to express his secret inner desires with Tony Veitch, Key responded, "I felt I was raising my standards and appealing to a wider range of voter and that being honest gave me a warm wet feeling I hadn’t previously experienced, it is a step up from the whole Paul Henry thing and it makes me feel like a bloke you can trust".

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to DexterX,

    Dexter, posting an entire story from the newspaper without any analysis breaches copyright law. Link to it and quote relevant paras, sure.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Sacha,

    I... don't think that's the same story that was in the newspaper. If you look closely. :)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Sacha,

    Sacha - it is the Uncut Unpublished Version - it differs from the publihsed and edited copy found here:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-news/news/4597545/John-Keys-celebrity-crushes#share

    My analysis is that it sucks and he blows - what is yours?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Fair call - some satire mixed in towards the end. By comparison, Scott satirises the news coverage without quoting most of it.

    Lecturer in Political Studies at Timaru University, Fraser Newdick, said that Key had recaptured territory lost to him over the last couple of years.

    "Being interviewed on Tony Veitch's radio show and talking on-air about who he'd like to bag was a sure sign of the man's class," said Mr Fraser.

    "It was also a politically astute move. Having already sewn up the bland-spineless-lacking-initiative demographic, he's now made the sexist-boofhead vote his own.

    "Anyone who is about to throw their girlfriend down the stairs will now be thinking of voting National."

    Satire and parody are not protected under NZ copyright law. I'm not sure where that leaves most of the current cabinet.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason, in reply to Keith Ng,

    A two party trade (NZ government & NZ public) of a good with a clearly defined monetary value (shares) is pretty close to a zero sum game, not factoring in the time value of money.

    It boils down to an idealogical approach to life doesn't it? Owned by all for a Public Good or owned by me and all you losers pay me through the nose.

    My childhood friend and confidant Keith Ng stole my lunch and my heart

    Obviously the teachers at that school did not do a good job of 'turning' Johnny Boy. Are we now paying for Johnny's pseudo crucifixion and he decided to take revenge on the bad boys by stealing their money rather than take the righteous path of Saint Keith and act in the "Public Good"??

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Recently-sheepish Martin Devlin feels compelled to share his response to news of UK sports media munters facing consequences.

    Andy Gray has just received the harshest red card in football.

    His sacking from Sky Sport (England) this week, after recordings of some non-broadcast remarks he'd made were leaked to the tabloids, reflects far worse on the man's former employers than anything about Gray and what he may or may not have actually said.

    ...

    Even less relevant is the fact they chatted about whether the woman's good-looking or not - wake up world, this is how men and women conversate. It's normal, it's natural, it means nothing more than any cheap throwaway line ever does.

    There's that "normal" word again. At least Richard Boock restores some faith in local sports media reps:

    It's true, Sky should be congratulated for taking a stand against this type of Jurassic thinking, although they probably had little choice. Whatever you might think of the manner in which the comments were leaked, as soon as they appeared in the public domain Gray and Keys were damaged goods. When more than half your potential consumer audience is female, the demand for a couple of well- known chauvinist pigs is unlikely to be clamorous.

    Yet, it was also the right decision. Sport deserves more than to be represented by a group of overgrown frat boys; people who still insist on marginalising women as sexual playthings. At a time when the industry is waging battles against homophobia and racism it would've ill behoved Sky to continue with their Beavis and Butthead- type impressions. It's bad enough having the players set poor examples; professional commentators should know better.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Sacha,

    Yep, Devlin's latest spoutfest confirms he's a member of the Good Ole Boys club.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5443 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    Sport deserves more than to be represented by a group of overgrown frat boys

    Heh I thought they were the perfect representatives of modern day sport.
    When its all about winning at any costs. Even being a decent human being.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1891 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    Incidentally, w/r/t asset sales I don't know if anyone has raised the spectere, but supposing someone from, say, China took a largish stake and supposing we wanted to make legislative change to reduce coal consumption or tame the elkectricity market, might they not sue us under the trade agreement for devaluing their investment?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    A focus on increasing New Zealander's investment in NZ to fund more of our growth from our domestic savings/markets would be better than reminicsing on who you would most like to phuck..

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to andin,

    When its all about winning at any costs. Even being a decent human being.

    Revenge of the Jocks, methinks?

    A focus on increasing New Zealander's investment in NZ to fund more of our growth from our domestic savings/markets would be better than reminicsing on who you would most like to phuck..

    Bread and circuses, much?

    KiwiSaver is an obvious candidate for boosting local savings. Oh wait, the powers that be think it's run by dancing Cossacks.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5443 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    The circus is 'Talk Back" - there is no bread.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

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