Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: The March for Democracy

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  • Stephen Judd,

    So you're saying you really think 9/11 was an Israeli plot? I just want to be clear here.

    If you don't, what was the point you were making by providing that link? I really don't understand what you are getting at. What is the nature of the discomfort are you expressing by posting that link?

    disingenuous

    I do deliberately conflate the Israeli plot angle with "the Jews did it," because I genuinely believe it is an antisemitic explanation. It depends on belief in scheming Jew tropes for its plausibility.

    Yes, I know Palestinians are Semites. Antisemitism still means Jew-hating and it's not my fault that the German Jew-hater who coined the phrase botched his etymology. Again, what the fuck? What does that have to do with whether "it's an Israeli plot" is an antisemitic explanation?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Gio. My point was the abuse of the word "Truth" from both sides is, at least, disingenuous, the truth is just not known.

    Yet for you the content of that link on the Ron Paul site qualifies as "revelations". This puzzles me.

    I've just this minute come across this letter that Lewis Carroll wrote to a child friend:

    Don't be in such a hurry to believe next time-I'll tell you why-If you set to work to believe everything, you will tire out the muscles of your mind, and then you'll be so weak you won't be able to believe the simplest truest things.

    Only last week a friend of mine set to work to believe Jack-the-giant-killer. He managed to do it, but he was so exhausted by it that when I told him it was raining (which was true) he couldn't believe it, but rushed out into the street without his hat or umbrella, the consequence of which was his hair got seriously damp, and one curl didn't recover its right shape for nearly two days.

    "Hurry to believe" describes possibly all of us in relation to both official explanations and conspiracy theories. But Truthers are the fastest of them all, and that alone exposes them very quickly if you bother to read their literature.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    "revelations". This puzzles me.

    Possibly not the best choice of words, would you accept "bit of news" or "bit of gossip" instead?.

    I do deliberately conflate the Israeli plot angle with "the Jews did it," because I genuinely believe it is an antisemitic explanation. It depends on belief in scheming Jew tropes for its plausibility.

    I had no intention of messing with your beliefs. Merely pointing out a logical possibility.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    It would help me a lot l if you made your points less obliquely, because I'm still struggling to see what they are. I've asked you directly whether you believe the claims made in the link you posted, or alternatively to explain why you posted it, and you just respond with evasiveness. I feel trolled, and I don't like it.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    Charlie Wilson's war? Just as a backgrounder. I doubt all of what I read on this, but one thing that seems to be required for real truthiness to prevail is a sufficient amount of time to pass. How long? How long is a piece of string?

    Needless to say, I think we have some way to go. What is already apparent is that Bush (junior and senior), Rumsfeld and co were not above some pretty dodgy manipulations of the truth to advance their agendas in Iraq, and the Meddle East©*. We can agree on that, right? If they weren't clever enough to orchestrate it (Iraq I mean) then they were at least too stupid to prevent it.

    *That was a typo, but I'm owning it.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    If they weren't clever enough to orchestrate it (Iraq I mean) then they were at least too stupid to prevent it.

    Of course they orchestrated it. This has never really been in question. And yes, of course Bin Laden was an agent of the US. So was Saddam. That they both turned into sworn enemies is neither surprising nor proof of shadowy dealings: it's simply how the cold war worked, and the public in the US has always accepted that.

    Perhas the 9/11 Truth movement is a pathological reaction to that cynical acquiescence. Either way, they're not helping the cause of the critics of that imperialist logic - quite the opposite.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    I feel trolled, and I don't like it.

    I know how you feel but how often do I have to say...

    Like I've said before, I find both sides of this to be various shades of bullshite. There will always be agendas, either before or after such a horrendous act, that will be aided by nefarious explanations.

    Let me make this as clear as I can.
    I am neither Jewish nor an anti-semite, I am also not a Zionist, a "Truther", a bigot or a troll. I just have doubts about the truth of the explanations, all of them.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    That they both turned into sworn enemies is neither surprising nor proof of shadowy dealings: it's simply how the cold war worked, and the public in the US has always accepted that.

    Perhas the 9/11 Truth movement is a pathological reaction to that cynical acquiescence.

    In my opinion, the public didn't accept that, because they never had the shades of grey explained to them. The only part of the old saying about my enemies enemy being my friend that they picked up on was 'friend', which was sort of interpreted in a BFF, best buds for life sort of a way.

    I doubt more than a small proportion of the population really understood, even in the most general sense, the proxy wars being fought in their name in SE Asia, Africa and S America.

    The 9/11 truth movement is simply one among many reactions to the post-9/11 question 'why do they hate us!?'. It's difficult to ignore the fact that you may not be as universally loved and revered as you think you are when it's shoved in your face in a way you can't ignore.

    Charlie Wilson's war is not a bad example to make. In real life, Representative Wilson saw the Afghan proxy war in the most simplistic of terms: simple, yet noble tribesmen valiantly battling for their freedom against a powerful monolithic oppressor. When he finally managed to get close enough to meet a few of them (towards the end of the conflict his CIA contacts allowed him to travel there), he was rather taken aback by their lifestyle and beliefs, which were ferocious and savage well beyond his comprehension.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    I am neither Jewish nor an anti-semite, I am also not a Zionist, a "Truther", a bigot or a troll. I just have doubts about the truth of the explanations, all of them.

    So why did you choose to link to that one in particular? Honest question.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    So why did you choose to link to that one in particular? Honest question.

    It has its origins in one of the first reports on the incident (the "Dancing Israelis" story") and as far as I can tell it is current, 14 April 2010, it is also the least inflammatory report of the current story. Even 911 Myths doesn't totally debunk it.
    The New York Times article seems not to be on-line and I apologise for referencing a Fox News article but at that point in time even Fox was trying to be accurate. The Bin Laden denial in that article is interesting too as is the Colin Powell take on Bin Laden's involvement.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    When he finally managed to get close enough to meet a few of them (towards the end of the conflict his CIA contacts allowed him to travel there), he was rather taken aback by their lifestyle and beliefs, which were ferocious and savage well beyond his comprehension.

    Well, when I got close enough to meet a few of them, back in 1972, they were fine, if a little wild and very few of them carried guns. The Bedouin still ran camel trains through there. These days The Bedouin look like This and the camel trains are history.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    But Steve, assuming one can rely on any statement in that "report", which frankly I don't, it doesn't present any evidence in support of the claimed conspiracy at all. It boils down to saying "this event was convenient for Israel." Every geopolitical event is convenient for someone, but it doesn't follow that therefore that someone conspired to make it happen.

    The dancing Israelis story seems to boil down to one person claiming she saw some young men acting inappropriately (as of course many people do when shocked). If that's not complete debunking, what would count?

    I simply cannot see how you would find these credible evidence that Israel is behind 9/11 (or even peripherally involved, for that matter) unless you are predisposed to believe that anyway. If this is the best you can muster for disbelieving the standard account of what happened it is a pretty poor showing.

    (By the way, what kind of double think does it take to cite Colin "evidence of WMD" Powell here? Is it ok to believe his public statements as long as they support your theories?)

    The Ron Paul thing I note is quick to distinguish how they're not anti-Semitic and how some of the people they cite have Jewish ancestry. They do protest too much.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Well, when I got close enough to meet a few of them, back in 1972, they were fine, if a little wild and very few of them carried guns.

    The Soviets invaded in 1979, and stayed until 1989.

    A decade of brutal occupation and the funnelling of thousands of modern weapons into the country may have had something to do with it.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Stephen,
    There is so much said about who is to blame, the truth is hidden, it certainly isn't the people of Afghanistan or Iraq. These people have suffered enough for hundreds of years yet gain no sympathy. However, when somebody points the finger in a more likely direction they are always shot down in flames and accused of being a nutty conspiracy theorist, or worse. When truth fails, follow the money.
    I don't know what to believe, it just saddens and angers me that it is always the poor that suffer.
    Rich, absolutely. The current situation ain't making it any easier for them either.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    There is so much said about who is to blame, the truth is hidden, it certainly isn't the people of Afghanistan or Iraq. These people have suffered enough for hundreds of years yet gain no sympathy. However, when somebody points the finger in a more likely direction they are always shot down in flames and accused of being a nutty conspiracy theorist, or worse. When truth fails, follow the money.

    It wasn't the people of Iraq or Afghanistan. It was a group of conspirators operating mostly out of Saudi Arabia, and they certainly weren't poor either. There is multiple and convergent evidence of their involvement, virtually none for any other explanation, yet I suspect we won't hear the end of various alternative theories any time soon because hey, people need hobbies. It irritates me a bit that they dress this fascination with chasing the most ridiculous ideas as a commitment to scepticism, or the Truth, or racial tolerance, or pacifism, or anti-imperialism, when it's none of those things.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    I am fully persuaded that bin Laden blindsided the Taliban and that in any case the war in Afghanistan is a dreadful, futile waste of life. I am fully persuaded that the war in Iraq is most likely a combination of Bush's daddy issues and imperial oil needs. Those are truths that aren't hidden but are out there in plain sight. The victims of those wars have every sympathy from me and I don't need Truther fantasies to feel it.

    The Truthers are in a way the people who can't handle the truth -- they apparently don't believe there would have been a war in Iraq without 9/11 (ignoring the bizarre illogic of faking an attack by Saudis to launch a war in Iraq), whereas I have no problem in believing that at all. They believe that airlines and the military and the fragile technological systems and the trust that underpin the modern world are too strong to be vulnerable to anything except state-sanctioned meddling, whereas I have no problem believing that a clever barbarian who's willing to die for the cause can easily disrupt them.

    What I'm not persuaded by are, as you put it, "nutty" theories that actually have the propaganda effect of putting critics of both wars on the side of loons. I guess we differ on what we consider a more likely direction. Believing everything, believing nothing, it's just abdicating your common sense for the joy of wallowing in your powerlessness.

    Frankly, if I were a real conspiracy theorist, I would expect malicious intelligence agencies to be behind Truthers. Truther theories exaggerate the power of the establishment and demoralise left-wing opposition. I guess this is why I find them more infuriating than, say, creationism.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Here's something you really can be angry about: The Ground Truth: The Untold Story of America Under Attack on 9/11 by John Farmer, chief counsel to the 9/11 Commission.

    It is a story of official fecklessness and lies before, during and after the attacks. And it doesn't need exotic conspiracies; it's well enough documented.

    The crazy thing about this is that the top Google result for the book is the conspiracy site Prison Planet. It's relatively difficult to find a mainstream news report about it. Kind of does my head in, that.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22744 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Oh, and also: Ron Paul is a racist lunatic of many years' standing.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22744 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    It was a group of conspirators operating mostly out of Saudi Arabia, and they certainly weren't poor either. There is multiple and convergent evidence of their involvement, virtually none for any other explanation,

    Here is some of that virtually none for any other explanation,
    What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks? and this The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11
    Now show me yours.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Here is some of that virtually none for any other explanation,

    Well, at least you've stopped being disingenous about what you believe. I wonder why you didn't answer Stephen's perfectly straightforward question earlier.

    The proof for the Al Qaeda connection to 9/11 is not in any one place, but you ought to be able to find it by your good old self by consulting them, whatchamacallem, newspapers and the such. Plenty of primary documents related to the investigations are in the public domain, too. Wikipedia as always is a pretty good port of call.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    After spending fifteen minutes reading that stuff all I can think is 'who gives a shit!' The evil that men do, and all that. It was bad. They, whoever they were, were bad. Bad shit continues to happen, in spite of, or because of (e.g. Guantanamo) the lies and BS that was/is propagated on both sides before, during, and after 9/11.

    And what have we learned? Not a lot, if recent evidence is anything to go by. Perhaps I could read that Farmer book, but I suspect it would disappoint and sadden me even more. If you start to believe it was easily preventable, where does that leave us?

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    They, whoever they were, were bad. Bad shit continues to happen, in spite of, or because of (e.g. Guantanamo) the lies and BS that was/is propagated on both sides before, during, and after 9/11.

    On both sides? Which sides would those be?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Your so-called explanation is self-contradictory. Let me quote it to you:

    "Whether or not Israeli spies had detailed foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks, the Israeli authorities knew enough to warn the U.S. government in the summer of 2001 that an attack was on the horizon."

    Right, so is it a conspiracy, or not?

    I see they note Pollard's arrest as "an exception". Yeah right. How about "it doesn't fit with our theory, so we'll ignore it."

    What happens when we check the only direct references? Why, we find selective quoting. Eg, your pals link to Yehdit America. When I click through, I find in the very first paragraph:

    "Note to those being referred to this article by one of several antisemitic, conspiracy-theory web sites: Please notice that these sites have left out the following important passage: "The five denied dancing. I presume the neighbor was not near them and does not understand Hebrew. Furthermore, the neighbor complained that the cheerful gang on the roof spoke Arabic. As far as I understand it, that neighbor has had previous problems with the company, and she could have been waiting for an opportunity to avenge the owners." In other words, the one "witness" was not telling the truth. "

    So why should I find any of the rest credible when even less then 5 minutes without even looking for debunking cribs elsewhere, just using the material provided itself, starts to turn up problems? (I got home 10 minutes ago and I'm still sweating).

    Oh yeah, your mates are mates with Holocaust deniers. I'm going to assume that you're just gullible. Have you checked out the rest of the site? Do you find it all equally credible? If not, why is this one bit you linked to credible? If yes, then... fuck you.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Here is some of that virtually none for any other explanation,
    What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks? and this The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11
    Now show me yours.

    http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22744 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    On both sides? Which sides would those be?

    Pendant. All sides? Who came out of this clean? According to the review of Farmer's book, and most other reports, not many, if any.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

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