Hard News: Steven Joyce: Prick or Treat
100 Responses
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Tinakori, in reply to
I think the rumour is being put about by the same person who tried to convince me Steve Hansen is looking at Kim Dotcom as a possible replacement for Aaron Smith. There are just a few eligibility issues, I understand.
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Lisa Owen had no options with Joyce short of putting him in time out. The sound mixer should've wound down his microphone.
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Sacha, in reply to
The sound mixer should've wound down his microphone.
I do wish directors would do this.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I think the rumour is being put about by the same person who tried to convince me Steve Hansen is looking at Kim Dotcom as a possible replacement for Aaron Smith. There are just a few eligibility issues, I understand.
I rather think you're right.
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I was horrified that Joyce was so disrespectful and allowed to get away with it. There were options. Lisa could have terminated the interview or threatened to do so and it should not have continued after the ad break. However it did give me a much better understanding of the kind of person Stephen Joyce is. I hope a lot of other voters also learnt what sort of person holds such power within the Nats.
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Steven Joyce is also bullishly insisting that all is well with the National Science Challenges, despite steadily accumulating evidence that NSC are turning into a Novopay-scale trainwreck. See here also for a summary of the NZ Association of Scientists' survey across the science sector about the NSC process. It is quite remarkably damning.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
Steven Joyce is also bullishly insisting that all is well with the National Science Challenges, despite steadily accumulating evidence that NSC are turning into a Novopay-scale trainwreck.
I've tried to stay generous and positive about the NSC, but it isn't easy. The money put into the scheme is pathetic when counted on a per year basis. The money is going into a completely new scheme with no proven record of performance. And worst of all to me the challenges have ultimately been chosen by committee with all the faults of any design by committee project. What we've ended up with have been amorphous catchall goals, instead of clearly focussed challenges.
I have no doubt that the scientists funded by the money will do great work, we always find a way to do the best work possible. But the cost in conforming to yet another funding and reporting structure and the time and money wasted in setting this up makes me very sad.
It would have been much easier and much more productive to simply double the funding for the Marsden fund. But that would not have allowed Steven Joyce to grandstand, which is a pity.
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Carol Stewart, in reply to
Good on you, Bart. I think most of my colleagues who've been heavily involved have approached the whole exercise with goodwill and good faith also.
Increasing the Marsden fund was a pretty consistent theme among the responses to the NZAS survey. -
Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Lisa could have terminated the interview or threatened to do so and it should not have continued after the ad break.
She or management must have said something in the ad break. Further on Joyce whinges about saying he was giving Robertson his chance to speak and he wanted likewise, so it had been discussed during the break. His dismissive attitude seemed to be how he treated both Owen and Robertson. However he also seemed rather nervous in front of the camera (he checks them out often). His notes seemed rather lacking and once repeated a few times left him bereft of knowledge of what was discussed therefore resorting to childish spoilt behaviour methinks. I found Robertson only tried to defend Labour and snapped a few times in defence which was ok and he knew how it was being perceived plus he even asked Joyce to have some respect for Owen which was desperately needed by that point (late in the interview.) It became uncivilised as soon as Joyce opened his trap.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
His notes seemed rather lacking and once repeated a few times left him bereft of knowledge of what was discussed therefore resorting to childish spoilt behaviour methinks.
I've said something before about how vampires behave when threatened with exposure to sunlight - the best possible disinfectant.
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Jeremy Andrew, in reply to
I have no doubt that the scientists funded by the money will do great work, we always find a way to do the best work possible. But the cost in conforming to yet another funding and reporting structure and the time and money wasted in setting this up makes me very sad.
And the ones not funded will be down the road shortly.
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While it was all a bit unedifying and more suited to the institutionalised chaos of 'robust Parliamentary debate', I think its also fair to say Lisa Owen has been guilty of employing an overly aggressive interviewing style herself in the past. While it very occasionally makes for entertaining TV, it also means that interview subjects often prepare accordingly.
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Angela Hart, in reply to
yes, she has previously used an aggressive style , which I dislike intensely, but Joyce behaved badly from the outset and was only slightly better after the ad break. Given the provocation I thought both Robertson and Owen controlled themselves well, but wished Owen had either stopped it or laid down the law early on.
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Angela Hart, in reply to
Science is terribly badly funded in NZ and it's incredibly silly because science and technology are the areas we need to develop and even this government accepts that.
My job used to be promoting science and technology careers but the gap in earnings between pure science and pure technology is enormous. People are best to follow their interests but the money they can earn is a big incentive for teenage students making career decisions. And for highly qualified scientists looking to pay off loans and also looking for work in their fields which is increasingly difficult to come by in NZ.
As for the hoops which must be jumped through to get funding for research, they get smaller and further away all the time. This country is the biggest loser. -
Holy shit.
Results of the New Zealand Association of Scientists survey about National Science Challenges.
What a fucking disaster.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
...with a hat tip to Carol Stewart who linked to that yesterday just upthread...
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stever@cs.waikato.ac.nz, in reply to
Yes, it's been awful.
Those who have tried to get involved have had a hard time of it...trying to convince those who think they already know what is best for the country that the whole point of research is to find out new things, rather than simply try to confirm what the people handing out the money would like us to "discover".
Nothing new or interesting will come of this.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
…with a hat tip to Carol Stewart who linked to that yesterday just upthread…
Heh. Indeed. Do I get points for the extra swears?
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Sacha, in reply to
after Joyce's efforts on broadband would we expect any better on science?
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Carol Stewart, in reply to
Swears fully justified, sir.
My reaction to that NZAS survey was much the same as yours .. -
The manner in which democracy is run and the business of government is conducted is such that neither are a servant of the people - Steven Joyce a pretty good reason for abolishing list MPs.
"No Future" for you Joe Public.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
The manner in which democracy is run and the business of government is conducted is such that neither are a servant of the people – Steven Joyce a pretty good reason for abolishing list MPs.
Hear! Hear!
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abolishing list MPs
So we have a National/Labour duopoly, with both sides passively alternating and implementing similar hard right/soft right policies? I think not.
If you don't like a parties list MPs, don't vote for the party.
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Richard Aston, in reply to
The sound mixer should’ve wound down his microphone.
I do wish directors would do this.
+1
I wish us viewers had that power . -
Bart Janssen, in reply to
What a fucking disaster.
Honestly it really isn't a disaster. Yes as a new funding tool it's a cock-up of the first water, but that's no different to most of the new funding tools introduced over the last three decades by Labour and National governments.
The notable exceptions are The Marsden Fund which has proven to be incredibly successful at funding science with high impact internationally AND that leads to patents and products of potential economic benefit to New Zealand (to coin a hated phrase). The other exception, IMO, is the long gone version of the FRST NERF fund back when it was assessed predominantly by scientists for quality.
The problem is and always has been that politicians would like science funding to produce predictable economic benefit. They want to hand over $5M and get back $25M of economic growth in specific areas, and within 3 years. It's the last bit that screws everything up.
All the analysis says that science funding improves the economy. The actual return varies from study to study but numbers around 100 fold are not unusual. But those studies all show that you cannot predict where in the economy the return will appear. That bit really pisses off politicians because they can't take any personal credit.
Over the last two governments in particular (Clark and Key) we have had science funding controlled by treasury who hate the above even more than politicians.
So we've had funding tool after funding tool designed to direct research to where the politicians believe it will do the most good - at the expense of quality.
Oh and they've all continued to reduce science funding in real dollar terms because the public don't appear to care that our science funding is being starved to death to build more roads.
But it isn't a disaster, because in spite of all that we still have really good scientists doing really good work. They have become very skilled at figuring out how to fit the work they do into the new funding tools. And life goes on. Sure we could do more science and better science if they just gave the money to The Marsden fund but that doesn't seem likely to happen.
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