Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: So far from trivial

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  • robbery,

    It takes courage to do what you are doing.

    Thanks, I'd hope some people weren't stupid enough to interpret my comments as in anyway dismissing violence.
    This case, (outside of the central core of a couples act of violence) for me highlights some huge flaws in our society, how we marginalise and distance things (its him that did it, i'm passing judgment on him), how we accept being manipulated (where do I start), and how we are still the emotive and instinctive creatures we chose not to see ourselves as (thinking rational beings all of us, I think not).
    how can you address an issue if you don't first acknowledge it?

    ps I resent 20 mins of an hours news being devoted to sport so I've got even more reason to dislike veitch than most.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB,

    shall we settle on what an official source says?

    That would be ideal... but in the absence of that (what with medical records being private, etc.) how about we read between Veitch's lines...

    veitch has said he was under the impression that he had caused bruising until later corrected,

    So, thats an actual admission that whatever it was, was in-fact not bruising, but something worse than that.

    It was also made several days AFTER the publication of un-attributed statements that several vertebra were cracked (or similar)...

    So, it definitely worse than bruising, and he's not denying or clarifying something widely attributed.... that would have been the ideal time to do that wouldn't it?

    Its not concrete proof, or outright admission... but if you add two and two... you'll end up with something between 3 and 5.... if reality was 1 or 7 there'd be strong denials or lawsuits.

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 887 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    I'm not sure if it is still true but wasn't adultery grounds for murder (justifyable homicide) in france up until recently.

    , Thought it does still get used as a defence, and there are the honour killings throughout India as well. I think I'd rather anyone talk about me tits thanks:)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    shall we settle on what an official source says?

    Should we also point out that if this thing hadn't been scooped by a newspaper, the whole incident would not have come to the public's attention and the guy would have, you know, got away with it? In the fulness of time we might (or might not) know exactly what happened, but in the meantime we owe what we know to unnamed sources, do we not? And a lot of it is uncontested, is it not? It may well turn out that he did in fact leave her there for hours, at this point I don't think any of us would be surprised.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Yamis,

    Meanwhile, before Graham Reid beats me to it - we've got what now - the Lionman, the Veitch & the.....? Help please.

    The Lionman, the Veitch and the Wheelchair ?

    Since Nov 2006 • 903 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Yes, his bravery is truly awe-inspiring.

    your sarcasm cuts like a knife,
    you could have said ill-advised.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • dyan campbell,

    I mean, does this speculative detail matter?

    apparently not to you mr shattered spine, or was it crushed? :)
    yeah, I think its really important considering how emotive this is,
    did he throw her down the stairs or not?

    Your fixation on the difference between "shattered" and "fractured" is pointless and irrelevant - and you are also incorrect to assume "fractured" does not mean "shattered".

    If you are casting around for the correct term for "shattered" when referrring to serious bone fractures (as opposed to not so serious, undisplaced bone fractures) then the term would be "comminunated fracture" which is a clinical term.

    The victim is certainly very likely to have had comminunated fractures if she was kicked repeatedly by someone. That is to say, she is likely to have had "shattered" bones as a result of a sustained and vigorous kicking by a fit, energetic person, even if he is tiny.

    As Raybon Kan observed in his column, can we just start at a charge of GBH and work back from there?

    The raising of these points - "shattered" or "exactly how many hours" etc is an example of how, if someone cannot construct a logical argument is out-debated, they will try to split hairs - i.e. debate a point that is irrelevant to the point being argued - and they will use "red herrings" i.e. introduce points that are irrelevant to both the argument at hand and also the topic itself.

    Study some logic, Robbery. Learn how to construct an argument and not, as you did on the music thread, simply derail the discussion by introducing irrelevant points that do not pertain to the discussion, then complain that somehow your "argument" is being overlooked. It's annoying, but ultimately irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

    auckland • Since Dec 2006 • 595 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Thanks Dyan, nicely put.

    Rob, no one is trying to silence you or drive you out of the discussion, but I think Dyan is right about your style of argument. It might be well-intended, but it ends up like trolling.

    Oh, and yes, Veitch's house does have stairs. Hard ones. They've been in photographs.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22761 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Should we also point out that if this thing hadn't been scooped by a newspaper, the whole incident would not have come to the public's attention and the guy would have, you know, got away with it?

    I take your point but right now I'm not a fan of news media, and I don't think we should ever leave it to them to bring us the law or judgment on people.
    The correct procedure should someone have had legitimate information on this case would have been to have reported it to the police, and then for us to have learned bout it via police sources (this is of course ignoring the fact that our police force is a piss poor excuse for men and women to wear uniforms and complain about how under funded they are so why should they even bother trying to uphold the law (and I say this from personal experience with them), but that's another argument for another time)
    trial by media is not something to which we should aspire, and media printing unsubstantiated claims be the presently denied or not is not something we should be applauding. They should have stated that they had verified the information given and discussed it with police, instead they treated it as something to sell newspapers.

    but in the meantime we owe what we know to unnamed sources, do we not?

    that would all depend on what we know, and since veitch is the only one talking and he's not saying much we don't know as in actually know facts of fuck all, and apparently powell wants it that way for whatever her reasons but one of her friends possibly does not.

    And a lot of it is uncontested, is it not?

    uncontested doesn't make it true although I agree it does give the appearance of truth, but experience would show you that truth takes its time if we're even allowed to glimpse it.
    the whole thing smells funny, from the apologists side to the hang em high side.
    I'm a smart enough person but I'm finding it difficult to figure who the real veitch is and what happened,
    my imagination could come up with some impressive scenarios but then they'd still just be what I thought up so not worth the brain cells they're written on.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Savidge,

    my imagination could come up with some impressive scenarios but then they'd still just be what I thought up so not worth the brain cells they're written on.

    Could you imagine that people have stopped listening?

    Somewhere near Wellington… • Since Nov 2006 • 324 posts Report Reply

  • Yamis,

    Sunday, 6 January, 2006
    LB

    Since Nov 2006 • 903 posts Report Reply

  • Yamis,

    Cancel that date.

    Abort, abort!!!

    Since Nov 2006 • 903 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Robbery, since you're "a facts kinda guy", could you at least get the woman's name right.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Anita Easton,

    To restate a point from somewhere up thread.

    Every time the media prints a little bit more detail it invades the privacy of Veitch's victim, it adds to her pain and, we could comfortably assume, her shame and humiliation.

    Every time we sit here trying to figure out what happened to her, how long she lay in pain, how much of her body was how broken, how emotionally shattered she must be we invade her privacy, we add to her pain, shame and humiliation.

    In my opinion we should leave the detail alone, we should leave her what privacy she has, and the self respect and self confidence she has rebuilt since she was attacked.

    We don't need to know the detail, that's what the justice system is for

    The thing I can most honestly offer her is the hope that if she ever walks down the same street as me I won't recognise her, that she won't see pity or prurient interest in my eyes.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 21 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    but I think Dyan is right about your style of argument.

    thanks for the critique russell but the person I was disagreeing with (andrew) and I came to an agreement all by ourselves.

    It's annoying, but ultimately irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

    so is wedding dresses and tits on news readers but I didn't hear you jumping in there either. irrelevant to you is relevant to someone else.
    as far as your critique on my performance in the music thread goes since I have no idea who you are until I learn more about your involvement and knowledge on it I'll just assume you didn't understand what I was saying, mostly I was debating with simon, who's experience knowledge and expertise I respect, and that goes two ways, (we do know each other outside of here, we have the same job for almost the same amount of time).

    as far as this thread has gone I've stayed on topic and avoided the temptation to take the piss the oh so many times it has come up.

    I'm not constructing an argument, i'm participating in a discussion and I have not at any time in this thread felt my points (or 'arguments' as you put it) has been overlooked, quite the opposite, I think a few people have made good points off my comments so I'm not trying to derail anything.

    now regarding the topic being discussed if you could just outline exactly what that is and give us guidelines on appropriate ways to discuss it I'm sure I can try and fit better into your plan for living.

    said with a smile, it's the internet, its not like I'm really bothered or offended by your comments. friends?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    could you at least get the woman's name right.

    fair point,
    Kristin Dunne-Powell
    people with double barrel names are just greedy.
    I was lazy and spelling the one I could remember. I apologise.
    I make no excuses, but..... the heater made me sleepy?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    They've been in photographs.

    links?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    __They've been in photographs.__

    links?

    I'm happy to take Russell's word for it.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I'm happy to take Russell's word for it.

    but that would be nothing to do with the position of perceived power jill mentioned earlier?
    anyone would think it was a crime to check detail and strive to be well informed. I wish I had the trust and respect you have for authority figures.

    ok, think its time I left you to it. 41 pages and a lot of it isn't mine. guess there are some issues that people are thinking about that aren't held in the original post or in press releases and un named source reports.

    I'll keep my eyes peeled for music and media related topics though. There's no way I'm going to let misguided statements go unchallenged, should anyone make them of course.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    In my opinion we should leave the detail alone, we should leave her what privacy she has, and the self respect and self confidence she has rebuilt since she was attacked.

    Too late Anita.I would have been quite happy 41 pages back but it got to the point where I jumped in (somewhere about pg 26) because it started to get my attention when the story grew.But with all due respect for Kristin, I have tried not to second guess her. Also this story originally suggested that "the rumour" had been circulating for the previous year, so in our little country, there is no privacy.But having said that, I don't think of Kristin as humiliated, unconfident, lacking respect . I would (and do) like to think of her as strong, determined, and capable of deciding what was best for her, and ,having been employed by TVNZ, has a bloody good idea of the shit that was gonna hit the fan when it came out. She is definitely strong and good on her.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    anyone would think it was a crime to check detail and strive to be well informed

    I have a distinct feeling that even if you were living in the toe of Veitch's shoe while the kicking was administered, you'd find some way to nitpick this issue...

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Crikey, you've added another five pages since I left. There's a lot of talking past going on, so I'd like to suggest everyone re-read Stephen's wise point about that - http://publicaddress.net/system/topic,1214,hard_news_so_far_from_trivial.sm?p=58970#post58970

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19697 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    lacking respect .

    should have been lacking self respect.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Cecelia,

    I've been tramping in the Pureora Forest and the tuis were making a heck of a racket. The whirr of wings, the chortles, squawks, chimes and whistles ... bit like PA really.

    And what's trolling and if it's what I think it is I'm puzzled. I thought Robbery was adding a different note of some value and while Stephens' point is very clever, I don't quite see it as unchallengeable.

    Hibiscus Coast • Since Apr 2008 • 559 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And in line with St ephen's insights, this recent gem from Robbery...

    we are still the emotive and instinctive creatures we chose not to see ourselves as (thinking rational beings all of us, I think not).

    Rob, I'm happy to be both emotive and instinctive. If you're not, then that's your problem to deal with. You won't be getting away with making it mine, especially when the topic is so obviously emotive in nature. Show some respect for the different forms of knowledge expressed here.

    it's the internet, its not like I'm really bothered or offended by your comments.

    It's hardly "courageous" to keep trying to sideline the conversation if you don't care what others think anyway. Bravery involves a bit more investment than that.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19697 posts Report Reply

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