Hard News: Narcissists and bullies
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Why does anybody (man) thinks this is something new
Ask any woman of your acquaintance if some creep hasn't tried this sort of shit on them.
If not them, then a friend
It has always gone on but that does not make it right, quite the contraryThis is the parallel world that women and girls occupy, where men try it on and their bodies are appraised every time they go out
It is not acceptable and it is well past time it was stamped out.
Smokers are now pariah, time we applied the same standards to these creeps
I can't believe that the police have only had a watching brief on this, in fact a look at the facts suggest they were trying to identify the offenders and dealing with them but that was not nearly proactive enough IMHO
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Danielle, in reply to
Smokers are now pariah
I am hugely uncomfortable with this analogy. And I was so all "yeah boyee!" about the rest of your post, too!
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Graeme Edgeler, in reply to
According to the just-released statement from Police, the Facebook site “did not provide evidence that could be put before a court”.
I read the statement which on my reading includes the words:
"did not provide evidence which would allow the case to be put before a court."
as indicating that it would be evidence that could be used in court, but would not be enough by itself to lay charges that wouldn’t get thrown out very quickly.
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JessicaRose, in reply to
Brilliantly said Lucy.
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nzlemming, in reply to
I thought statutory rape was something the police were able to prosecute without a complaint being laid?
I believe it is more that a minor's parents/guardians can make a complaint without the minor's assent. The sex may have been completely consensual but, because of age of one or more parties, it is a crime. But a complaint still needs to be laid. Graeme may correct me on this ;-)
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By coincidence , last night I watched an old episode of Taggart in which a well-known novelist is killed and his prostitute 'companion' is all-but, and later, killed. The investigation centred about a drop-in place for the women and the difficulties encountered by the police in getting co-operation. The episode made it very clear why there was the lack of co-operation. No punches pulled in showing the police attitude.
It was a grim companion piece to the NZ TV story.
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On a bit of a tangent here, I'm interested in the social reasoning behind a bunch of teen guys who feel value in raping drunk girls, and are proud of this acheivement. I didn't see the news article so I'm not completely versed on the senario - (so corrections welcome!), but it appears that this is a prestige club that young gents feel that they want to be a part of and then like to brag about?
So how is society failing them?
Would an element of prevention in this case be 'really not wanting to do it to start with'? So why do they? What kind of upbringinging have they experienced?
Now I'm pretty sure that there are a bunch (I'm going to go on a limb here and say the majority) of young men who don't think raping a drunk chick is something to write home about - but perhaps I'm incorrect?As I said - this may be tangental and possibly some of these questions were already resolved on the telly, but it's been on my mind all morning so I was interested to see if anyone else had anything to say about it. I mean the police can't stop teenagers getting drunk and having sex (that force is unstoppable), but society can alter who is the 'slut' and who is 'shamed' here.
Im struggling to articulate that yes these kids need to be prosecuted for rape, but there is a bigger level... treating a symptom not a disease?
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Graeme Edgeler, in reply to
Police do not need a complaint before they will investigate (or lay charges) in respect of any offending.
People will now note, of course, that the police have been investigating for quite some time.
However, they do need sufficient admissible evidence of offending before they lay changes. Depending on the charge, the type of evidence needed to meet the standard will differ. If they have video of someone having sex with someone who is obviously a child, then I would be very surprised if they did not lay charges, even if the child refuses to make a statement, or is unknown.
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I get that the evidence as it exists probably wouldn't result in a successful conviction. But if the police thought that these guys were selling and/or distributing drugs they'd put them under surveillance and try and secure convictions. Doesn't the alleged serial gang-rape of minors warrant that kind of investigation?
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The thing about pursuing private vengeance is that even if it satisfies the victim and puts the offender on the right path in life (and it probably doesn't), it misses two important functions of public justice:
- informing the wider public that this kind of thing happens and is a social problem
- having a deterrent effect on potential offenders who hear about it.Just dealing with things quietly, however well it works out, can't send any message beyond a circle of acquaintances.
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nzlemming, in reply to
Police do not need a complaint before they will investigate (or lay charges) in respect of any offending
I sit corrected.
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Graeme Edgeler, in reply to
But a complaint still needs to be laid. Graeme may correct me on this ;-)
Done.
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This whole thing doesn’t make sense to me. The police have video proof, the scum admit they are raping young girls but because the girl doesn’t complain there is no crime? How then do police convict pedophiles from video footage when the victim is often unable to be located, therefore unable to make a statement. I thought having sex with an under 16 yr old was considered pedophilia or at the very least statutory rape.
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The police say they "alerted" the school attended by the four teen rapists they talked to.
That school is Avondale College, a conservative school which is known to be less-than-welcoming to external sexual health services.
What, exactly, did the school do in response to the police "alert"? I would like to know that.
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Dude has some sketchy lyrics eh
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pollyrotovegas, in reply to
JessicaRose I agree, however one thing I find even more disturbing than these young males wanting to belong to a gang-rape 'club' is now the need to add humiliation into the mix.
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izogi, in reply to
I read the statement which on my reading includes the words
Oops. Thanks, Graeme, for correcting my mis-quoting of the press release. My bad.
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Dreams: To become a Police officer.. If not then a famous Singer/Rapper
Judging by the apparent dis-concern of the police and the “Bravado” of many members of the “Rap community"he would probably fit in well in either group and that is part of the problem right there.
The Police need to take a good hard look at their culture on this one. -
Matthew Poole, in reply to
If they have video of someone having sex with someone who is obviously a child
And that's the clincher. An unidentified 14- or 15-year-old is very hard to distinguish from an unidentified 16-year-old on what is, most likely, the video from a cellphone. Or even on broadcast TV, for that matter. If they've got a school ID out with the DoB clearly visible, well, that's about the gold standard, but somehow I don't think that's what's happening here. Or if the rapists in question were dumb enough to get "How old are you?" on video, that would probably also do it.
We're not, as far as we know, talking about actual paedophiles whose offending on video is pretty easy to spot, we're talking about guys who fuck young-teen girls, and it's mighty hard to tell from video whether she's 13 or 15 or 16. If the cops could find a victim and get confirmation that she was under 16 at the time, well, jackpot, but probably only for an offence with a maximum sentence well shy of the 20-year maximum for black-and-white rape.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
We’re not, as far as we know, talking about actual paedophiles whose offending on video is pretty easy to spot, we’re talking about guys who fuck young-teen girls, and it’s mighty hard to tell from video whether she’s 13 or 15 or 16.
It's not clear whether they have posted videos of the acts, or just of themselves slut-shaming later on. I think it's the latter.
But why the hell haven't the police seized their phones and computers in search of evidence?
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I get that the evidence as it exists probably wouldn’t result in a successful conviction. But if the police thought that these guys were selling and/or distributing drugs they’d put them under surveillance and try and secure convictions. Doesn’t the alleged serial gang-rape of minors warrant that kind of investigation?
Exactly. I get that with no formal complaint from a victim and only some material on facebook etc to go on they might not have enough for a conviction. But they clearly have enough to be all over these guys so that at the very least they move on, but hopefully they gather enough evidence to take them to court.
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I wonder if the young men in question are shitting themselves now.
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http://instagram.com/p/fceKsKhb-K/ Here is a video on Hale's instagram of him- I guess this isn't pre-roasting since they stopped doing it ages ago?
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
How then do police convict pedophiles from video footage when the victim is often unable to be located, therefore unable to make a statement. I thought having sex with an under 16 yr old was considered pedophilia or at the very least statutory rape.
Paedophilia (which isn't actually the offence, either, it's the clinical term for sexual interest in pre-pubescent children) is below the age of 12. Between 12 and 15 it’s just sex with someone under 16.
And if you hadn’t noticed, it’s pretty bloody obvious when someone is three or four, or an infant. Real paedophiles don’t want hints of actual sexuality, which means their victims are young. When you can point to a video and say “That child is unquestionably under 12, and here’s an array of forensic anthropologists who will testify to that fact”, that obviates the need for an identifiable victim. You can’t have that certainty with early teens. -
Matthew Poole, in reply to
But why the hell haven’t the police seized their phones and computers in search of evidence?
Probably something Graeme can answer with more authority, but a search warrant does require some reasonable level of suspicion that the search will turn up evidence to support prosecution. Along the lines of my comment about it being hard to tell age from video, that's a hurdle to convincing a judge that evidence will be forthcoming if there is a search.
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