Hard News: Fix up, young men
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Chris Werry, in reply to
and here's Sean's Facebook page including a screenshot of him in the act
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I found the other one (Insull, not Insel) in about a minute on Facebook. He's clearly not the least ashamed of his actions, and nor are his friends.
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I hate that this shit happens. And I honestly don't remember it being like this when I was in my teens/twenties either. Maybe it was the environment I was in. Who knows.
I strongly believe in people calling others out on their behaviour, but that's easier said than done. I'm reasonably intelligent and empathetic - I'm sure we all are here - and spot these things happening. But I'm also a very large male who used to remove drunks from bars for a living. I have the privilege of being equipped to intervene; not everyone can. What do you do when intervention/calling out is far too risky?
And I do think it's been creeping up on us for a long time, this war on empathy. I firmly believe there's a connection to reality TV, and to the un-empathetic behaviour of so many of our so-called leaders.
I just hope we're hearing about it more - Roastbusters, RoK, these tools at Laneway - because a societal rejection of it is building.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I hate that this shit happens. And I honestly don’t remember it being like this when I was in my teens/twenties either. Maybe it was the environment I was in. Who knows.
I don't think you need to pretend everything was rosy to feel that way. I don't recall it either.
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Notice how quickly this thread became men talking to other men (there was even a #notallcamerapeople guy) and ignoring women's voices saying THIS IS NOT A NEW THING? Or even ignoring Lilian's suggestion of how things could be improved? The problem is not just at gigs. THE PROBLEM IS RIGHT HERE TOO
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Here’s a recent RNZ conversation about sexism in music which mentions the Australian movement Listen which is trying to encourage sorority, conversation and action around stopping these sorts of behaviours.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
But still, dickheads will be dickheads.
What's changed this time round is that dickheadery has been given undeserved respectability by shock-jocks, among other vapid blowhards.
And regarding the declining attendance of the Wellington Sevens, the usual suspects are blaming wowsers for ruining it. No, wowsers didn't ruin the Sevens, hooligans did.
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thank you, Russell. Great post.
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James Littlewood*, in reply to
Notice how quickly this thread became men talking to other men
Yeah. I did. But because I find it so profoundly offensive, and indeed embarrassing (both as a male and a member of these doofs' greater tribe), and also because I struggle to accept that there is no solution, and that as a male I might be able to help with that solution, I felt compelled to engage, and I suspect similar applied for other men.
Lilian’s suggestion of how things could be improved
Lilian or Lilith? I agree it would be really interesting to support the artists to hold things up until the undesirables get ejected.
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Remember when some genius decided to commemorate the 30th anniversary of Woodstock by staging a commercial festival on an ex-airforce base with Insane Clown Posse, Korn & Limp Biskit headlining? Carnage ensued with vandalism, sexual violence and a riot to finish the whole wretched event off.
Laneway is the opposite of that but maybe it has something to do with the commercialisation and scale of these events? You see crass behaviour at large sporting events as well, maybe people feel like they can lose themselves and get away with behaviour they wouldn't in a small group or at smaller events. I really don't know.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
The two guys proudly gave their names in the TV3 follow up piece: Sean Philip and Thomas Insel. If TV3 can track them down then I’m sure the NZ Police will have no problem
I sometimes wonder how many of these yobbos are 'snob yobs' who combine the worst aspects of old money and new money - getting up to criminal mischief, getting off scot-free and getting away with saying to the authorities, "my dad's a rich-lister who pays your taxes!" More recently we've had the vandalism antics of the Oxford Bullingdon Club.
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Yes, well, guys wouldn't recall it. Guys aren't in the best position to observe and report, and they rely on women to tell them about it. Which may not happen, for all sorts of reasons.
I read Hunter S Thompson on Hell's Angels and gang rapes a while ago. This shit isn't new. There's always someone with the shock horror reaction saying we should do something about these mods/rockers/bikies/punks/hiphop artists/musclebros/Targeted Other of choice, and there's always someone saying notallwhatevers, and someone (hey, Hunter) saying don't you really sign up for that when you do X?
Toxic masculinity is practically everywhere. Academia. Most religions. Atheism. Music. Media. Politics. Gaming. Business. Sport. The Military. If we blame the field in which it appears, we lose focus on what the problem really is, and maybe miss some ways to solve it.
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Or even ignoring Lilian’s suggestion of how things could be improved?
It's a great suggestion. Sorry for not addressing it. I was responding to Deborah and Emma's comments around calling out behaviour.
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mark kneebone, in reply to
Thanks mate - appreciate that
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They've run into a similar problem in Perth.
There's been a suggestion that pre-loading is a problem, so maybe there should be breath testing at the gate, as they did at the 7's this weekend.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I read Hunter S Thompson on Hell’s Angels and gang rapes a while ago. This shit isn’t new.
Kinda. In the context of this festival and others like it, this behaviour – and in this environment it really is committed by a certain profile of young man – is new, or at least getting markedly worse. It really did start to emerge around Rhythm & Vines. Australia is seeing it too, as noted.
That is not to deny the societal pervasiveness of such a culture, but people who actually go for the music are starting to feel invaded.
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I hate that this shit happens. And I honestly don’t remember it being like this when I was in my teens/twenties either. Maybe it was the environment I was in. Who knows.
I don’t think you need to pretend everything was rosy to feel that way. I don’t recall it either.
A hopeful thought. My oldest daughter (16) is a keen and frequent gig-goer, and I've ferried her and various members of her extended posse (pretty even mix of boys and girls all in the 16-18 age group) back and forth from the likes of Tame Impala, Mac DeMarco, 1975 over the last year or so. At no stage have I ever witnessed or heard of the boys acting like dicks, or disrespecting the girls in any way. Hearing their excited post-gig reports, its usually the girls who have led the charge into the mosh-pits and generally been the musical ring-leaders. I might be being naive, but I hope its a good sign.
That said, I've also heard second hand some horror stories from this years Rhythm and Vines.
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I think we have to listen to women who tell us it has always been like this. Us middle aged dudes aren't witnessing a moral decline, we're experiencing the truth sinking in.
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Yes Stephen, or you've got better at noticing. Some things look worse because people are engaging with problems to change them - see also crime statistics.
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Dan Salmon, in reply to
Same, my daughter passed out with heat at the front of 1975 and was treated really well.
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Day after contrition is all well and good.
My opinion is that this kind of offence is covered by assault laws.
I know the police may have been busy before tomorrow’s TPP signing, door-knocking possible protestors or somesuch but this is a serious, grassroots scenario.
I think a prosecution or two would be in order. Post hoc? Well, you don’t get a speeding ticketed from a camera till long after the fact. In the meantime you may have bowled a couple of music loving elders or even a leary, bleary-eyed yoof, high on Maverick bourbon and Fanta…
Let the court hear the evidence and testimony. Let the perps mitigate their offence after the finding and before sentencing.
In living memory NZ police used to prosecute youths for peeing against a wall, alone in an alley in town after a gig, or on a tree after a match at Eden Park.
It’s not too much of a stretch to imagine some sort of consequence positively affects negative behaviour.
We seem to have enculturated the idea that vile behaviour is ok as long as you offer a bewildered, lame apology. A fish rots from the head down - and yes, I’m referring to the prime minister John Key’s penchant for pulling waitresses’ hair. -
Max Rose, in reply to
That is not to deny the societal pervasiveness of such a culture, but people who actually go for the music are starting to feel invaded.
It doesn't matter whether people are there for the music or just there for a good time: women have felt invaded for ever. It's not about whether what happened at rock concerts or R&V or whatever is now happening at Laneway. Women are abused and harassed at rock concerts, at R&V, at Laneway...and on the street, in their workplaces, and in their own homes.
There may be aspects of these particular incidents that seem shockingly blatant and uncouth, but it's just an extension of what happens everywhere. People should stop trying to blame RTDs, shirtlessness or commercialisation of festivals, and blame the underlying cause: the assumption in a patriarchal culture that men have the right to women's bodies.
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Deborah, in reply to
Notice how quickly this thread became men talking to other men
Sure did. Put me right off commenting again, to the point of typing up and deleting comments. Hovering over the delete button right now, actually... what the hell.
Here's the thing. From talking about what could be done, it very quickly became a conversation about how hard it can be to stand up and call out behaviour. I take Mark's point about size etc, and damn me, it is hard. I find it hard, and I top out at 165cm on a good day, but I do it. I do have the inbuilt cultural advantage that even most dickheads think it's wrong to hit women, and these days I have the advantage of age, but it's still a scary situation.
So if it's going to be hard, think of some tactics. Approach another man in the nearby crowd, and ask for his support. Call out to the surrounding crowd and ask for support. Whatever you do, don't leave a woman (or a gay man, or a disabled person, or whoever it is) to wear it all on their own.
If you do just leave it quiet? Decide it's better not to intervene? Well, that just reinforces to the perpetrators that their behaviour is perfectly acceptable. After all, no one is objecting, are they?
I agree: just one man, up against a posse of dickheads - that's a dangerous situation. But could the ordinary decent men talking to each other on this thread perhaps talk about tactics for dealing with exactly that situation, and perhaps rehearse in their heads what they might do?
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Could technology be better integrated with security at these types of events.
Patrons could download a 'Stay Safe' app.
They could sound a silent alarm for security assistance.
It could even integrate with surveillance footage.
I know of similar apps for women, same thing but just on a localised event specific basis.
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