Posts by Bart Janssen
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Hard News: Fix up, young men, in reply to Danielle,
talking about WHY we’re talking about that thing in this particular way – serves a number of purposes too.
I would normally totally agree with you. Except the tone of that part of the conversation has shifted from discussion and trading of ideas to accusation and recrimination and is toxic.
By conflating the two discussions nothing is being progressed in either discussion and folks (or at least I) are getting tired and grumpy in the process.
I am happy to have another thread about the way we talk.
And at no point do I think you are being an arsehole about this.
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The only value in this thread is if there are solutions.
There have been some suggested.
Arguing about who is listening is not helping because it is driving people away - people who might be able to help with solutions.
I feel like I've been accused of something (the actual thing varies) and I've tried to apologise but frankly I'm at the point of walking away.
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Hard News: Fix up, young men, in reply to raena,
You raised them.
glib and wrong, for multiple reasons.
What strikes mne is that in so many ways the next generation is freaking awesome.
Their attitude to gender diversity is amazing.
Their care for the environment makes most of us old folks feel inadequate
But on this? What about this makes it so different that they behave this way?
And yes I know many of that generation are as fucked off as I am about this.
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Accepting everything the women are saying here, then this is a question
Why isn't the next generation better then us misogynist old white men?
What the hell did we do wrong that the next generation isn't better than us???
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Hard News: Fix up, young men, in reply to Stephen Judd,
Real, but, and I mean this lovingly, much less relevant than any woman’s who feels like sharing theirs.
Agreed.
My experience and my only reason for bringing it up is to try and figure out what the hell is happening and how it can be stopped. I, by natural bent, look for points of change because they give clues to cause and hence possible solutions.
The fact is, it is a male problem, it's something about us men, particularly in groups. Women should not be forced to change their behaviour.
The solutions at the bottom of the cliff are all good, but it causes me deep frustration and anger to see groups of men (boys, from this aged perspective) display such hatred of women and no amount of bottom of the cliff stuff gets to the root of the hatred and contempt.
Try as I might I can't figure out the mental state that allows such horrible behaviour.
And, most scarily, if I can't understand the cause, then what stops it being me?
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Hard News: Fix up, young men, in reply to selinamc,
I am absolutely gobsmacked by the number of older men on here crying “not in my day”.
This is what I wrote
I honestly don’t remember my mates as a teenager being so utterly horrible to women. As I write that i feel like I’m shouting “In my day…”
I don't remember it being that way. I didn't experience it. I didn't see my teen cohort do it.
That was my experience.
Your experience was different.
Please can you accept that both things can be true. I don't have to be wrong for you to be right or vice versa.
If my experience was real then somehow my cohort was different and there might be something to learn from that. Or I could simply have been blind and you can ignore my experience.
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Hard News: Fix up, young men, in reply to BenWilson,
Not @bart…that’s accidental.
None taken
I am just tired of seeing folks who would themselves strongly object to having their experiences invalidated quite happy to turn around and invalidate other people's experiences.
It's pretty clear there is a difference of experience being talked about here. As you say part of it is because victims (women) know they are being abused and bystanders (men) don't necessarily know.
But part of it could actually be that some people lived in an environment that really was different to what is going on now and ignoring that possibility is ignoring the opportunity to identify causes.
Either way this place has never been one where it was Ok to invalidate someones experience, I much prefer accepting that each person comes here with their experience and we have an opportunity to learn from it rather than trying to shut it down. By it isn't my house either.
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Someone made a comment at tea time that is interesting.
They pointed out that when we search the internet or use twitter or facebook or any of the social media tools, the algorithms in the background promote items that are similar to what you’ve recently looked at.
It’s a feedback system. You can see its effect by just liking a couple of things on facebook and seeing what gets fed back to you. But it exists in every social media and search engine.
Essentially it’s like being in a room full of folks saying “yeah, you’re so right” even if what you are saying is stupid.
I wonder if part of what is driving these groups of boys to behave so openly abusive is that online that see that behaviour as universal, not because it is universal but because that’s what their information feed shows them.
And please don’t assume I’m so stupid as to be saying “it’s all the fault of the internet”.
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Hard News: Fix up, young men, in reply to Joanna,
it conveniently passes on the responsibility
That isn't what I think. It's exactly the reverse. It must be something we've done and it has to be something we change in order to fix it (I can see Emma nagging at me to stop trying to fix things).
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Hard News: Fix up, young men, in reply to Russell Brown,
I’m kind of annoyed at being told it has always been thus
I'm happy to accept that other people experienced something different, I'm just annoyed that my experience is being dismissed.
I don't remember my cohort being like this.
I KNOW women were abused when I was a teenager.
Not, I heard
Not, I believe you when you say
But, I knowDon't dismiss my experience and I'll try not to do the same.
I know my own experience and it is different to what I see now.
That says to me that something has changed and given my utter hatred of the abuse women receive I'd like to understand what the hell it is that has changed and if it can be fixed.
I utterly agree that at the bottom of the cliff we need to figure things that can be done but I also think there are things that need to be done at the places where this behaviour is being generated.
For me part of that is the casual acceptance that we place middle aged white men in positions where they can spout this shit to the nation AND WE LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT.
How can we let Paul Henry imply the only reason a women scientist gets invited to a think tank is because she is having sex with the organiser???? How do we let Mike Hosking diminish the bahaviour of young rapists???? How do we let our PM harass a waitress???
We wonder why these teenaged boys think it's cool to abuse women - hell they get shown that it's OK every fucking day.
And yeah while I agree this is a problem where women absolutely get to call the shots please don't dismiss the possibility that some of us males are just as fucking angry about this and want it to stop.
Sorry my anger spilled over into my language.