Up Front: Staying Civil
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We married in a registry office. In 1961 there was no alternative and since my darling worked for the government - in the very court where we spliced - it would not have done to have simply moved in together. I was happy enough being a wife, but not The Wife, and disliked the 'my' in my husband. And later, as in my children. Sometimes he called me his wench, which scandalised some but made me giggle.
A telemarketer irritated me a few weeks ago when she asked was I Mrs Thing. I said yes and then he sked if he could speak to Mr Thing. Something snapped and I said no he couldn't. Mr Thing was dead. Which he is, alas. Make that very alas.
After we became parents I threatened to cut off his priveleges if he ever called me Mother. He never did.
And I can't resist - "Dead! Dead! And never called me mother!". (East Lynne, stage version only)
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Wendy, I am very sorry your beloved died. That sucks. He sounds like he made you very happy.
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Thanks. He did - most of the time.
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Since my decommissioning request seems to have gone unnoticed, I'll add my 2 cents.
Ms 8 asked her mum only yesterday 'why do you have dad's last name?' Mum replied 'well I thought about it, and could choose to keep my dad's name, which was his dad's name, or grannies name, which was her dad's name, or my grannies name, which was her husband's dad's name. So I decided that the only man whose name I wanted, was your dad's.' Seems Seems logical. Sort of.
My twue wove calls me, with varying degrees of possessiveness, 'my <firstname>' or for dramatic effect 'my Wesley will come for me' to which I reply 'as you wish.'
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When I went to my first Plunket meeting I was horrified that everyone was addressed as Mrs.. . This was the 1980s. I thought that practice had disappeared decades earlier when it was common for people to refer to even people they knew as Mr and Mrs [husband's first name, husband's surname].
As the only non-Mrs in the room I never went back. -
When forms arrive with the standard options: Mr, Miss, Mrs, Ms, - invariably in that order - I go for Dr, which keeps 'em guessing about the number of penises involved - just the way I like it...
There is a classic thought-experiment paradox along these lines, explained on wiki thusly:
Other paradoxes involve false statements or half-truths and the resulting biased assumptions.
For example, consider a situation in which a father and his son are driving down the road. The car collides with a tree and the father is killed. The boy is rushed to the nearest hospital where he is prepared for emergency surgery. On entering the surgery suite, the surgeon says, "I can't operate on this boy. He's my son."
The apparent paradox is caused by a hasty generalization; if the surgeon is the boy's father, the statement cannot be true. The paradox is resolved if it is revealed that the surgeon is a woman, the boy's mother.
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Something which I don't think has been touched on yet wrt marriage is the very human need for ritual and spectacle, something which a church wedding usually provides in spades, and which the civil services often (but not always) fial to measure up to.
I was quite happy,despite being a fairly millitant atheist, to get church-hitched, because it gave us the opportunity to throw a big party and make everyone dress up in stupid clothes. Being in a old church with all the solemnity bells and whistles added an appropriate air of gravitas to the occasion.
I have several happily coupled friends, who have co-habited for years or decades, happilly raising families, etc.
It's almost like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. There's a small part at the back of my brain that keeps saying: 'So. The party. When's that then? You know. The clothes, the cake, the speeches. Anytime soon? Should I make a note of the date?'.
Stupid, I know, but there you are.
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It's almost like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. There's a small part at the back of my brain that keeps saying: 'So. The party. When's that then? You know. The clothes, the cake, the speeches. Anytime soon? Should I make a note of the date?'.
Stupid, I know, but there you are.
So you like a good church wedding then? I have to admit that my wedding was more like a civil union, in that there was no cake - my mother is a diet nazi - we were married at my parents' farm under a rose bower (except that there were no roses), everybody had to stand for the full 10 mins it took to do the legalities with the celebrant, and I didn't wear a posh dress, and neither did Ian wear a suit. And there weren't any speeches nor a top table (Well there were tables, at least). We did have food, though. Oh, and no speeches, unless you count my Dad saying "Kai time, everyone!" There are, to be fair Rich, all sorts of weddings and ceremonies and such. I don't agree with the practice of spending thousands of dollars, but if that's what makes people happy, why not? Everybody has their own way of doing things, when it comes to tying the legal knot civilly or uncivilly.
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Everybody has their own way of doing things, when it comes to tying the legal knot civilly or uncivilly.
Which is kind of the point, isn’t it? I want a big *&^% off wedding, with bridesmaids and cake and dancing and speeches, a giant white dress and a smiling groom. (If I could have that last one first, that’d be good.)
Because that’s we do in my family. We stand up in front of the people we care about and say “this is the person i love and want to spend the rest of my life with And I want you, the other people I love to witness that And to be a part of our life together”. I want that.
But if someone else doesn’t want to do that? If that’s not the way they choose to celebrate their relationship? What the hell business is it of mine?
But they should have the right to do whatever they want.
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Which is kind of the point, isn't it? I want a big *&^% off wedding, with bridesmaids and cake and dancing and speeches, a giant white dress and a smiling groom. (If I could have that last one first, that'd be good.)
I can say, honestly, that I will want to be there for that one. It makes me happy just to think of it. And that's how I feel about any occasion where two people stand up and say "I love you, let's do this thing." Makes me very, very happy.
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Jackie, Emma will be a bridesmaid. I intend to put her in the hottest outfit, with the highest heels, I can find.
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Oh, she will make a fabulous bridesmaid. I'm about to cry now with the happiness of it. Seriously.
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Don't get too excited, there's a key component yet to be added to the picture.
A luvvveerrr, to bring it back to the discussion.
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Yes well, there is that minutiae - but really, I embrace happiness and that thought still makes me happy
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there's a key component yet to be added to the picture
Why are you worried about details, just get a good planner and they'll sort the details out.
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When I was last in Fiji, a good friend there took me to a resort, and I was all "man, I could have a wedding here, it'd be amazing."
She told me that she'd organise the whole thing, and I could just pick up a groom at the airport on the way through.
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So you like a good church wedding then? I have to admit that my wedding was more like a civil union, in that there was no cake - my mother is a diet nazi - we were married at my parents' farm under a rose bower (except that there were no roses), everybody had to stand for the full 10 mins it took to do the legalities with the celebrant, and I didn't wear a posh dress, and neither did Ian wear a suit. And there weren't any speeches nor a top table (Well there were tables, at least). We did have food, though. Oh, and no speeches, unless you count my Dad saying "Kai time, everyone!" There are, to be fair Rich, all sorts of weddings and ceremonies and such. I don't agree with the practice of spending thousands of dollars, but if that's what makes people happy, why not? Everybody has their own way of doing things, when it comes to tying the legal knot civilly or uncivilly.
What I was drviing at more was the attitudes of people outside the happy couple, whether that couple be none, one, or multi-penised.
For the record, everyone should have the right to the biggest blow-out they and their familiy and friends can afford, or if they prefer, to slope off down the registry office in jandals and shorts.
The church does spectacle, ceremony and ritual very well, and that is very attractive, not only for the happy couple, but also for the families. Registry office 'do's' often can't compete. So there is often this human urge to go for the church do (and to 'value' it more, and to feel it makes everything actually real, even though it shouldn't be).
Until the civil ceremony can compete with the church on equal terms for ritual and spectacle, I think it'll be struggling to get off the back foot.
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But Rich, many many weddings these days - bigass ones - never go anywhere near a church. My point was that there are plenty of big do's around that have none of that ritual.
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There is a classic thought-experiment paradox along these lines, explained on wiki thusly...
yes, Rich, I have heard this one a few times now. I guessed it the first time as it seemed so obvious. Not because I'm a genius, though that possibility shouldn't be dismissed altogether...but more because I don't live in the dark ages and have always had a woman doctor, even as a small child - which was indeed a reasonably dark age.
If we're chatting about weddings and churches and such, when we were married, we opted for a conventional Aussie wedding on the lawn - without the church. When lightening struck and all the lights went out just as we sat down to eat, my terribly trad mother cried out into the dark night - "That'll be God and his wrath!" - and they all lived happily ever after with hoots of ludicrous love and laughter...
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Late to the discussion but never mind! I tend to use "de facto" or "partner" and it seems to work quite well. We find the trickier ones are what to call the wider family, eg, his mum is my...what? "Mother-in-fact"? All suggestions welcome.
For civil unionists, has anyone suggested, springboarding from the Italian, "civillio/civillia"? Or does it have an unfortunate translation?
And for the record I use Ms quite happily (necessary for the times I appeared in Court) but really hate Mrs hissurname.
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I loved our big-ish (out-doors, nice scenery, marquee) but not churchy wedding... but it didnt seem out of the ordinary to us...
But Scottish friends commented how much they loved that in NZ you could get married in a park or front yard or wherever.... because the only legal options in Scotland were church or registry office... you couldnt make your own wedding venue! You either had to swear allegiance to some god etc, or have it in a bland room down at the council office.
I'm grateful we aren't so restricted here.
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If I had a partner to whom it mattered I might well have done the big-assed wedding thing and probably would have liked it (I am generally in favour of both frocks and booze) but I could never do the church thing - it would just feel dishonest which strikes me as a very bad way to start a marriage.
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What pisses me off about the whole marriage vs civil union thingy is that marriage is basically a civil union in NZ. Just because sometimes a church is involved doesn't mean that a couple are married in the eyes of NZ law. Whatever you call it and wherever you do it you still have to fill out the paper work and file it with the department of Internal Affairs. So why are some people allowed to get "married" and others not?
And weirdly it is illegal for someone in a civil union to then get married to someone else (without a legal separation). Even if they weren't legally allowed to marry their first partner.
I got married, and took his name. The old name was my father's, and his father's etc. And we're the only two people in NZ (that I'm aware of) with our name, so that is kinda cool. And if you always have to spell out your first name you may as well spell out you last name too.
A couple of our conservative friends still send letters to Mr and Mrs (his name). We chuckle. But when his mother did it I politely (not) pointed out her error. One long time friend writes letters to Mr and Mrs (his name) but still introduces me in company as Dinah (the old name that I grew up with), made me chuckle even more.
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The best weddings I have been to have all taken place outdoors - I'm thinking of one of my brother's marriages (Botanic Gardens, CHCH); 3 here on the beach at Big O; one awesome one in karst country, and another, literally in the incoming tide* on a southern beach. 2 had religious people doing the service- but with acknowledgment that almost nobody attending had religious beliefs;2 had non-religious but registered celebrants reading whatever the couple wanted read, and one was conducted with-in a religious ceremony.
But! The land and the people were very much part of the public celebration of the couple involved to each other. The events didnt lack for ritual (I was the kai karaka at 2 and I made very sure everybody involved understood the protocols, and the reasons for them - including training one of the visitors in kai karaka, and versing several Big O women in how to do them.) And they had awesome ceremonies during & after the event - including fireworks (the literal/littoral kind!) at the end of the tidal one. And we all feasted - and drank - very well.
The church weddings among family & friends were sort of happy** but ummemorable.
2 of my sisters, and 2 of s-i-ls retained their original surnames. It has been left for the resulting offspring to choose which name they want to take.
*You bet we were betting on how far in the tide would be coming!
**There were religious differences among participants. -
Jackie, I think my point of view is coloured by my UK experience.
As Fletcher has pointed out, in the UK you usually get an either/or choice between the church, with all the pomp and ceremony (and great architecture), or a pokey little rathole office in a tower block somewhere off the Basildon bypass.
Sure, the outdoors option exists, but...the weather, the hassle, the urbanisation of the entire country, the difficulty getting a celebretant...
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