Up Front: Stand for... Something
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I have been heartened by the public response to the proposed axing of Campbell Live. Thousands of people, for many and varied reasons, have rallied. But probably united in some vague idea that the programme has stood up for ordinary people. This could be our version of patriotism.
I heard a rumour that its axing is to be announced this week. If so I don't think we will let it go quietly.
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Does the way the internet allows us to group in communities of interest rather than geography undermine a sense of nationhood, or highlight national differences?
The internet appears to me at least to permit exaggerated notions of nationhood in the sense that it allows anonymous expression of extreme and sometimes offensive ideas (the polarising problem). In turn these ideas take on the status of truths in the face of contrary evidence on the ground as it were. Sometimes the exploration of these ideas leads to something else. I'm thinking vaguely about the role that the internet had in identifying what has become the SNP in the UK. On the other hand it may also serve to inflate the "gilded homeland" problem that seems to infect ex-pats the world over.
It may allow you (us) to inhabit multiple identities, which is a rather different issue.
Not a direct answer but then again I am an ex-pat who chose to come to NZ as an escape from a lost nation.
Oh and some Billy Bragg
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To me, part of the character is "I wish you well in doing your thing, but don't try and co-opt me into doing your thing on your terms as I have my thing. And if my thing includes your thing it will be on my terms". I see a few consequences of this:
1) New Zealander's are good generalists
2) New Zealander's are rubbish at asking for help
3) NZer's tend to cringe at campaigns of any sort rather than joining in.Of course, that is filtered through my being a well educated liberal. And while my major leisure activity would probably fall into the census category of volunteering, if it was part of a movement or campaign I would probably be uncomfortable.
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George Bernard Shaw said words to the effect "Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it" - The World , 15 November 1893. I think that's probably (a) an accurate description of the quality, and (b) not something I can really be bothered with.
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I'm happy to be a New Zealander; but why should I be proud of that, as if it reflected some personal achievement?
Not for nothing did Samuel Johnson describe patriotism as "the last refuge of the scoundrel". -
Emma Hart, in reply to
I think that’s probably (a) an accurate description of the quality, and (b) not something I can really be bothered with.
I think it's a good description of that kind of jingoistic patriotism we associate with America, "We're number one!" I think ours is more like, "I think my country's done some good shit." I would in fact argue that the most patriotic thing you can believe is that your country is capable of being better.
3) NZer’s tend to cringe at campaigns of any sort rather than joining in.
I do wonder if, were the general thrust of the campaign was in favour of retaining the flag, quite the reverse would have happened with submissions.
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So, basically, we're the Uriah Heep of nations, yeah?
Which is better than being Metallica, I spose...
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nzlemming, in reply to
George Bernard Shaw said words to the effect “Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it” – The World , 15 November 1893.
He was right. I'd rather us be the best country we can be, than the "best in the world".
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basically saying that changing the flag is a fucking stupid idea.
I would have said "changing the flag is a fucking trivial idea"
You want us to have a debate about what?
Really?
You don't think perhaps there might be other things a bit more important?
Oh, I see, you want us to ignore the important things and spend our time this trivial flag thing ...
Well FUCK YOU and the blue painted horse you rode in onI kind of think New Zealanders have a pretty good sense of the important things, patriotism isn't important, neither is the flag you wave.
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Patriotism, the old 'fatherland' or patria in 20th century clothing. Its close cousin Jingoism came from a music hall ditty from the time of the Crimean war
"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do.. "
Jingo being one of those alliterations used to avoid saying Jesus.
Are we to really to go back to the era when movie theaters began with playing the national anthem, and everyone stood up ?
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linger, in reply to
the Uriah Heep of nations
Yeh, though even that’s possibly too ambitious (and indicates a level of literacy that we wouldn’t feel comfortable publicly acknowledging) – more, we think of ourselves as bottom of the Heep, eh …
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I like patriotism of the quiet kind. I suppose if I had to stick a pin in the map and choose a birthplace, there aren't many nations I'd pick before the one I was lucky enough to get. The grass isn't greener anywhere, not once you look more closely.
But I do think we're afflicted with an overdose of fake patriotism, and it grates. You can play this game watching TV at any time - the pretty pictures, the warm smiles, the voiceover telling us we're Kiwi and we're special, and then ... guess what they're selling? It's a bank (foreign), it's a casino (foreign), it's an oil company (foreign), it's basically a corporate saying "You're stupid enough to fall for this".
No, I'm not.
Which is why the Flag Thing is dying on its arse. Put me in a jury room, shut out the noise from outside, and I'll probably vote for a change of flag. Or at least, for a reasoned discussion thereof.
But keep Kiwi telling me how Kiwi special I Kiwi am and keep Kiwi manipulating my Kiwi head into Kiwi marshmallow, and I'll reach the Kiwi point where I just want it all to Kiwi go away.
That's OK. Being unimpressed by smooth slickers is, of course, Kiwi as.
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I would have said “changing the flag is a fucking trivial idea”
I loved how quick people were to figure this and the idea that it was a flag not a branding exercise.
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Recently, I was Pub-Talking to an acquaintance, an American guy
I've had this same conversation with many Americans, but also quite a lot of Australians. The Americans are mostly just puzzled and spend the whole conversation trying to talk the country up, as if I were somehow suffering from a lack of national self-esteem. The Australians think NZers are humble because they got humbled by Ozzie, and mostly do "gracious winners" mixed with sledging, until race relations are mentioned at all, at which point they drop silent if they have any sense.
It's hard to pinpoint a national character in a multicultural society. I think Auckland is very different from Christchurch, for example. To me the country is mostly Auckland, but most of the country is obviously not Auckland. Also, as a middle aged person, most of my life was still in the 20th Century. But hopefully by the time I die, most of it will have been spent in this millenium. It's different, and not just because of demographic shift.
It's going to be hard to sum up all of that in an iconic picture. Good luck to them.
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One of the things I like best about NZ Twitter, is how often I find myself talking to a public figure about something completely ordinary like kids, or pets, or recipes. I'm not sure if it's a feature of our purported egalitarianism or just that we are a smaller, and therefore, safer-feeling community, but it's quite a lovely thing.
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BenWilson, in reply to
I would in fact argue that the most patriotic thing you can believe is that your country is capable of being better.
That is a quintessentially Kiwi thought, IMHO.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
I have been heartened by the public response to the proposed axing of Campbell Live. Thousands of people, for many and varied reasons, have rallied. But probably united in some vague idea that the programme has stood up for ordinary people. This could be our version of patriotism.
There's a term for it: the reality-based community. A community I'm proud to be part of.
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Hilary Stace, in reply to
Similarly our politicians have usually been very accessible. Any community group with a gripe used to be able make an appointment with the local MP and often the relevant cabinet minister had an open door. Politicians readily went on radio or TV and they would be 'minister' for the interview but known by their first name behind the scene. No so much now. There are more gate-keepers between the people and the politicians and PR people advise what interviews to do and with whom, and who to let through the door. So Campbell Live or National Radio rarely gets a minister to front (although jokey John will readily do the soft stuff). This accessibility is part of our national identity, and I fear it is under threat.
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Joe Wylie, in reply to
The Americans are mostly just puzzled and spend the whole conversation trying to talk the country up, as if I were somehow suffering from a lack of national self-esteem. The Australians think NZers are humble because they got humbled by Ozzie…
And by way of a small footnote, many Americans have long been puzzled as to why Rupert Murdoch is generally loathed in his country of origin, rather than being a source of pride for his global success.
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Beneficiaries 'scared stiff' of Work and Income
I'm feeling a bit ashamed and embarrassed to be a Kiwi. We sure can do better. -
A few years back I was interviewed by Rod Vaughan at the NBR about exactly this issue. Although I disagree with some of his conclusions and would modify some of my comments in light of recent events in the US, the thrust of them seems relevant to this discussion: http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/why-americans-embrace-nationhood-kiwis-do-not-rv-132371
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Raymond A Francis, in reply to
I hear what you are saying linger and 90% agree
But there are times when I am proud to be an NZer
Maybe because those who came had made an effort, paddling their canoes (or were they blown, lucky they had some women and food sources on board) and all the rest
And when they got here had to really work to make a mark
So when we talk about giving women the vote and allowing same sex marriage and all the good stuff I am proud but remembering that there have plenty of mistakes
Thing is I don't often try to shove it down others throat -
JacksonP, in reply to
I think ours is more like, "I think my country's done some good shit."
This reminded me of a post friend Jos did, around the 100% Pure NZ debate, as I recall. Hopefully he won't mind my reposting it here from Capture.
Chris W suggested we could improve it to 'NEW ZEALAND, NOT BAD EH?'
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bob daktari, in reply to
I'm feeling a bit ashamed and embarrassed to be a Kiwi.
same
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
We should probably stop showing off about fixing everything with number 8 wire. It's nothing to be proud of.
On the contrary. I have even, on occasion, used No.8 wire for nails. By cutting into, approximately, 3-4 inch (75-100mm) lengths, No. 8 wire can be, indeed, be used as nails. Bang the wire into the timbers you wish to join until a little under 1" (24.6mm) remains above the surface, then, using the same hammer that you used to insert the nail (No.8 wire), bend over the end and hammer home.
I have also used No. 8 wire as a pool cue, to little success.
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