Up Front: Lighting the Dark
101 Responses
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Danielle, in reply to
Of course, without the guns he probably wouldn't have killed people (or at least that many people). But I think the point is more that the shootings are an almost logical endpoint of MRA culture. I'm not using that #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter because, frankly, I'm scared of being threatened, and no matter how likely it is that those threats are empty, they're part of what happens to us when we talk online, and they're part of what happens to us when we reject sexual advances. Misogyny: to coin a phrase, we're soaking in it.
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Moz, in reply to
persuading them to want to flirt back
Or... maybe not doing that.I'm sorry, can you explain that? How is it bad to flirt such that people want to flirt back?
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Danielle, in reply to
Sorry, maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded to me, which was "keep going with the flirting even if they're obviously not interested". "Persuading" is one of those mildly worrying words, I guess?
(I should probably note that I barely remember how this works in practice. I've been in a monogamous relationship since 1998. ;) )
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Moz, in reply to
Thank you. I did put "... want to..." in there specifically to try to allay those concerns, although it looks as though that wasn't enough. Hmm.
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And because I didn't say what I came here to say:
To add to your list: Be a safe space. Let people know that you're safe. Don't touch them if they don't want it. Don't expect them to be OK when they're not. Don't assign blame. Don't offer retribution. It takes a lot for some people to feel safe, and it means a huge amount when they do.
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Grant McDougall, in reply to
I didn't intend to derail it - certainly not deliberately, ok ? This might surprise you, but I'm on actually on your side. Sorry for upsetting anyone, but I just thought the gun aspect was worth commenting on.
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Mike Howe, in reply to
The temptation for any individual to blame other people for their failures is very strong. When you’re basically handed the script?
The script is pervasive. For men it is to take vengeance on those who he sees as having wronged him. This "hero" often chooses to act in a violent and indiscriminate manner. Any extreme action is justified in our eyes and the "prize" should be sweet revenge (and of course the girl).
Reality check: this "hero" needs psychological help and possible incarceration to protect society.
This is how it plays out in media. But even in day-to-day life society accepts this.
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Chris Waugh, in reply to
But even in day-to-day life society accepts this.
Turns it into magical light tricks and projects it onto silver screens and burns it onto DVDs for our entertaining indoctrination.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
Don’t offer retribution.
This is a big one, and maybe not so obvious. Because the script for a man when a woman they care about is hurt, is to leave her alone by herself, and Go After the perpetrator. "I'll go punch him in the nuts for you," doesn't actually help, IMO, it just makes you feel worse.
Be a safe space. Let people know that you’re safe.
To put it another way, how can a woman tell you're not That Guy? She's not psychic, and you shouldn't expect women to assume all men are safe until proven otherwise. It's a bit bloody late then.
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Megan Wegan, in reply to
A really nice example of my earlier point? My flatmate will pause things, or tell me it's time to go and make a cup of tea, any time there's a scene in a movie or TV that I might not want to watch. She's my real life trigger warning.
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Carol Stewart, in reply to
Is “girl power” a positive when it’s used about grown women?
Excellent point.
When you say something like “girl power”, what is it you’re actually describing?
Well, it was probably a bad example to choose, but since you ask, I was thinking of it being a term that encourages girls to be assertive, independent, ambitious, self-reliant and so on.
But just to clarify, it's a horrible term that I wouldn't dream of using.
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Women do make for the very best friends.
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Not sure I can contribute much but some thoughts occurred while reading the various links.
Historically when you wanted to go to war for whatever reason one of the first things that needed to be done was to define the other nation as "not human" or "other". That definition makes it easier for the humans on your side to kill the humans on the other side. The next thing you need to do is make the humans on your side who are doing the killing less human themselves. That's not easy, most soldiers find it very difficult.
Much of what I read today on this seemed in many ways to be about reminding all parties that we are all human. And at the same time a tremendously outpouring of frustration that this is not blindingly obvious.
At what point does a man decide women are not human and then take that decision far enough to do harm - of any kind? What is it that we are doing when we raise generation after generation that casually define women as less-than-human, because as far as I can see that appears to be the case.
As an aside, I suspect not all derailing is done maliciously, I suspect some of it comes from needing to avoid some pretty ugly conclusions about our own behaviour as men. I certainly don't feel like I'm confident I have not been party to some of the behaviours described on #yesallwomen and that isn't a comfortable thing.
For me as a man the scary part is not knowing - no scratch that - being pretty certain there must have been times where I was "that man".
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Thanks Emma
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
As an aside, I suspect not all derailing is done maliciously, I suspect some of it comes from needing to avoid some pretty ugly conclusions about our own behaviour as men. I certainly don’t feel like I’m confident I have not been party to some of the behaviours described on #yesallwomen and that isn’t a comfortable thing.
Well, sure. And that's why an incredibly important -- and incredibly difficult -- part of being an ally is having the right answer to this question:
Are you really listening, or are you just impatiently waiting to assert your unexamined male privilege to speak?
So often, the most empowering thing us guys can do is just give the floor all the way over to the women who are told on a daily basis: "You can't talk about that, and certain not that way. And even if you do, nobody who matters cares about what's rattling around in your empty little lady-brain."
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Robert Urquhart, in reply to
For me as a man the scary part is not knowing – no scratch that – being pretty certain there must have been times where I was “that man”.
I know damn well that there have been times in my youth when I was "that man" to a greater or lesser extent, and probably more recently when I've lapsed in one way or another.
And I've come to believe that it is incumbent upon those of us in that situation and with the emotional resources to spare to own our past failings rather than be ashamed to show them; to be the ones who step up and say "It is OK to have fallen for these ideas in the past, but we know better now and must work to overcome the influence they have on our thoughts and actions."
To be examples of people in the process of change and encourage society to accept that it is not easy to unlearn these habits and thought patterns, but it is possible and it is a change worth making.
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TracyMac, in reply to
Thank you, I was just going to make the same point.
What about Wossname in Auckland who beat his ex-girlfriend to death a couple of years ago? Same entitlement syndrome, result was still a death.
The only difference is that guns make it easier to kill someone rather than putting someone in a hospital, Make it even easier to kill multiple people. The underlying motive and intent? Exactly the same.
Sure, the US needs to continue their gun debate, but whatever the outcome, it doesn't stop toxic attitudes to "the Other", whatever the Other may be.
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I’ll try and be brief about this. I understand and wholly support the reaction of the women I know to this horror. My response, equally understandably, I think, was that here was yet another young man with an autism spectrum disorder diagnosis going on a brutal rampage. Like Adam Lanza, who slaughtered 20 children and six adults 18 months ago at Sandy Hook, Rodger was the same age as my older son. That weighs very heavily on me.
I’ve been wearied and sometimes upset by the constant Twitter retweet noise telling me I’m not allowed to think about that. I made myself read Rodger’s screed and I believe that he clearly had a severe personality disorder and probably symptoms of ASD.
The thing here is that what Emma aptly describes as “the script” (I thought “the text”) came from a pervasive culture of misogyny. It was that which colonised the space in Rodger’s alienated life. It is that which is a constant reality for women who have to be around misogynist men. That weighs heavily on me too.
I wrote a post about this after Sandy Hook, so I don’t need to carry on. That’s not what this conversation is today. But I would ask that people allow that there is more than one dimension of these horrible events.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
To be examples of people in the process of change and encourage society to accept that it is not easy to unlearn these habits and thought patterns, but it is possible and it is a change worth making.
This. We all fuck up sometimes, all of us. I've seen people change their minds and never acknowledge it - so someone who's pushed the 'car keys' metaphor for rape is on the other side of that argument the next time it comes around - but it takes even more courage to say, as Bart and Robert have here, and some of you have on other threads of mine, "I used to think this/say this/do this, and it was wrong, and now I try really hard not to." Those are the moments I do this for, to be honest. It's what it's all about for me.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
but it takes even more courage to say, as Bart and Robert have here, and some of you have on other threads of mine, “I used to think this/say this/do this, and it was wrong, and now I try really hard not to.” Those are the moments I do this for, to be honest. It’s what it’s all about for me.
I’ve chewed over a couple or three things over the years, still do. None of them terrible, all of them things I wish I had the chance to do over because I don’t like who I was then and there.
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B Jones, in reply to
--"My response, equally understandably, I think, was that here was yet another young man with an autism spectrum disorder diagnosis going on a brutal rampage. "
I'm not sure he did have a diagnosis, given that family friend someone Astaire was reported as saying his family just suspected he was on the spectrum.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
The thing here is that what Emma aptly describes as “the script” (I thought “the text”) came from a pervasive culture of misogyny. It was that which colonised the space in Rodger’s alienated life. It is that which is a constant reality for women who have to be around misogynist men. That weighs heavily on me too.
True - but "the script" plays out in the lives of plenty of men who aren't on the spectrum and aren't mentally ill. What's really got me nervous about a lot of chatter around this is how the framing of Rodger as nothing more than a "psycho" is a very convenient way to avoid talking about the culture of misogyny. It's much easier to load more shit on the millions of mentally ill people who don't go on misogynistic kill-sprees.
I've spent a lot of today trying to write something more or less coherent about Seth Rogen and Judd Apatow's Twitter-tantrum at Washington Post film critic Ann Hornaday, the way it was reported and the sadly predictable shit Hornaday's had thrown in her direction. (Sorry, don't think it's appropriate to link here but it's not hard to find.) In the end, I just don't really have the spoons for much more than a lot of crying.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
Wading in cautiously: thanks for the post Emma. Just wanted to say that and sort of stick my hand up as a non-contributing-but-actively-listening person.
I’ve chewed over a couple or three things over the years, still do. None of them terrible, all of them things I wish I had the chance to do over because I don’t like who I was then and there.
I'd bet that more or less everyone does. I certainly do. I read a lot of the links in Emma's post, and they're thought processes, paths, and conclusions I've mostly already arrived at after spending the decades since my teens getting comfortable with myself. But in my '20's? No.
So how do I contribute in a way that helps more people to be comfortable well-adjusted humans?
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Lucy Stewart, in reply to
What about Wossname in Auckland who beat his ex-girlfriend to death a couple of years ago? Same entitlement syndrome, result was still a death.
"Man kills ex (or on-off, or trying to be ex)-female partner" is such a common thing it's basically background noise in our society. I haven't really been engaging with this whole thing online because I don't know what to say, in the face of that - in the face of people then denying that this has anything to do with gender or a larger pattern. It's so damn tiring.
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I can't bring myself to watch "his" youtube thing. I avoid it when it's on the news as much as possible.
I completely agree about the gendering that happens at school (we found kindy was great, our youngest boy could dress as a princess and no one cared). But school... that was a whole 'nother thing. One son chose to give up ballet because of snide comments, which now that he is older and more confident, he really regrets. I don't think it was the teachers, it seemed to be the other male pupils who policed gender.
One thing I've noticed is that my husband avoids certain men. I asked him why, they seemed like nice guys, but apparently out of women's hearing they talk about women in a nasty, sexualised way. I _never_ would have guessed, they didn't give off any vibe that creeped me out, but now when I see them, all I see is a potential rapist.
I think the vending machine comment is perfect. Some men think that if they put in a certain amount of effort - dinner, chocolate, movies, nice-guy-listening - then a sexual relationship pops out after a while. So when the "goodies" don't appear after a while they feel cheated, then angry. Sober, he's likely to hold it together, but put a few drinks in him and then the hurt and entitlement can come rushing out.
Watching my own sons I think they model a lot of their behavior on their father. Also if they use gendered or objectifying language we come down very hard on them, but you're fighting a constant battle against the social expectations of their peers and you wonder what they are like away from home.
Thankfully our kids are pretty cool. Our oldest boy is a proud brony and has aspergers which means that what he likes, he likes, and social expectations can just bog off. He's a great role model for his younger brothers who are neurotypical, but it's hard when peer pressure can be so strong.
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