Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Can't We All Just Fucking Get Along?

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  • Emma Hart,

    I would say that if you said your idea of feminism was to be completely submissive to men, take a lot of shit from them, clean up after them, do lots of work for them, play punching bag when they're drunk, and thank them for it all, then I'd say you're either not a feminist, or you're a bad one.

    Ben, I find it interesting (note: not snark, I genuinely find it interesting) that this list is entirely 'things one does', not 'things one thinks'. So... how far down that list do I have to go? I'm thinking here of the flatmate who told me off for doing my partner's laundry. And thank you Kyle for saving me the keystrokes of bringing up TPE.

    Surprisingly rarely passed. Firefly - written by someone who talks a lot about advancing feminism and the importance of strong female characters - rarely passes it.

    Which I think to me indicates a flaw in the Bechdel test - though it's of course never claimed to be a comprehensive standard. That is, it gives no weight to the content of the man-woman conversations. I think it assumes, in a very Harry Met Sally way that friendship conversations are same-sex, and boy-girl conversations are romantic. So in Firefly, I would think most of Zoe's conversations are with Mal, not Wash, and about missions, not lurrrrve. Kaylee has conversations about engines, but because they're with men they don't count? (Gah, I feel like I'm not explaining my problem here very well. Perhaps I can psychically communicate it to someone else who can do a better job.)

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Craig! I've been waiting for you all morning, my darling. I knew you'd be able to help us with the film stuff. :)

    Aww... you be sweet. But I've got to admit I'm a huge fan of film noir and the quote unquote "woman's picture", and if you want to talk about not getting along there's one hell of a debate around whether Bette Davis in Now, Voyager and Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity are icons of female empowerment or deeply misogynistic tosh where the transgressive women must, ultimately, be punished (or killed) for her impertinence?

    Molly Haskell's From Reverence to Rape: the Treatment of Women in the Movies is dated in many respects -- the 2nd revised edition was published in 1987 -- but it's still useful in suggesting the picture is a little more complicated that either extreme allows.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    it gives no weight to the content of the man-woman conversations.

    How's this? The test makes sexist assumptions about the nature of a conversation based on who's having it.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    To me, it's a lack of sophistication in understanding how power works socially.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    (Gah, I feel like I'm not explaining my problem here very well. Perhaps I can psychically communicate it to someone else who can do a better job.)

    I think you explained it perfectly well.

    But I suspect firefly isn't the kind of thing the Bechdel test is aimed at. More like this abomination (FWIW, the most offensive film I've ever seen that didn't involve violence.)

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    It really is. I'm stymied. Um. I hear good things about Please Give, by Nicole Holofcener, but haven't seen it myself yet.

    Which is a nice opening to remind folks in Noo Zild that New Zealand International Film Festivals approach... The Auckland and Wellington schedules (including Holofcener's latest) are live. Think Christchurch and Dunedin will follow early next week, but don't hold me to it.

    On the laydeze tip, I'm already fucked off that I'm going to miss Gillian Armstrong's Love, Lust and Lies (And I'm going to commit film-geek blasphemy and say that I actually like Armstrong's slices from the lives of three working-class Adelaide women over the decades more than Michael Apted's ...Up films.)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    But I suspect firefly isn't the kind of thing the Bechdel test is aimed at. More like this abomination (FWIW, the most offensive film I've ever seen that didn't involve violence.)

    Oh, Alec Baldwin's been in some shit...

    And yes. I think the test itself is useful overall, for demonstrating a particular point, and still so many action movies and romantic comedies fail it (or the reverse Bechdel test, which I don't think SATC2 would pass?)

    But then you see "Firefly must be sexist because it doesn't pass the Bechdel test". (Please, don't make me link to the famous Joss Whedon is a Sexist Arsehole essay, please.)

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    (FWIW, the most offensive film I've ever seen that didn't involve violence.)

    If you want to cleanse your palate, I suggest tracking down Nancy Savoca's Dogfight -- not a flawless piece of work, by any measure, but Lili Taylor and River Phoenix are downright heart-breaking in a movie whose plot in bald summary sounds like any number of shitty teen comedies. The difference is that Bob Comfort's script, and Savoca's drection, are clear-eyed without ever being mean-spirited.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity

    Ooooh. Can we just take a moment to think about Barbara Stanwyck in that role, tool of the patriarchy or not? Swoon.

    (Please, don't make me link to the famous Joss Whedon is a Sexist Arsehole essay, please.)

    Is that at all like Giovanni's link to the 'The Wire is actually totally racist, y'all' blog entry? (Yes, yes, I am completely incredulously bitter about that blog entry, I know. I need to shut up about it.)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Is that at all like Giovanni's link to the 'The Wire is actually totally racist, y'all' blog entry?

    Yes. But longer ago, and I am still angry about it.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Josh Addison,

    (Please, don't make me link to the famous Joss Whedon is a Sexist Arsehole essay, please.)

    Bugger, I was just going to bring that up, assuming that the one I've read is the same one that you're talking about - is this the one that concludes that Mr. Whedon almost certainly beats his wife?

    Onehunga, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 298 posts Report Reply

  • Josh Addison,

    I'd be keen to hear more from Josh and others about some of the relevant academic points about that, but that's just me.

    Sorry, just noticed that. I can't really offer any stirling academic insights - A) It was 1997 and I can barely remember any of it, and B) it was a Philosophy paper, so the emphasis was on surveying the issues and not really coming to anything remotely resembling a conclusion.

    Onehunga, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 298 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    assuming that the one I've read is the same one that you're talking about - is this the one that concludes that Mr. Whedon almost certainly beats his wife?

    Yes. At least, it better be, because if there are two I might cry.

    And also that said wife is a gender traitor who has sold out for money and fame.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    And also that said wife is a gender traitor who has sold out for money and fame.

    These sound like excellent reasons to sell out. If you're gonna do it, might as well do well out of it.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    From memory, that 'piece' appeared to have been written in response to this, and the idea that a man was being honoured for his work towards equality.

    (The meat of the speech starts about two minutes in. The point where I always start crying is about 6:30)

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Bugger, I was just going to bring that up, assuming that the one I've read is the same one that you're talking about - is this the one that concludes that Mr. Whedon almost certainly beats his wife?

    Ah, yes, and apparently nothing Kai Cole says about her own life and marriage is to be believed.

    And Whedon may not be a quote unquote feminist, but I get why plenty of women loved a show where the blonde cheerleader wasn't a retarded slut who got symbolically raped to death in an alley... 'cause, you know, that's how stupid whores roll.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Ben, I find it interesting (note: not snark, I genuinely find it interesting) that this list is entirely 'things one does', not 'things one thinks'. So... how far down that list do I have to go?

    I was fairly careful to say "Their idea of feminism is X", rather than "They do X". By that I meant they think that is what it is. Whether they do it or not. They might not do it, and feel guilty about that, for being bad feminists. Which is sort of funny because they are bad feminists, just not in the way they think.

    If it's a kink...er, I dunno. I pretty much meant they think this all the time, not during brief roleplays. That sort of raises the question of how long a roleplay can actually last. Is something a roleplay if you do it for 70 years continuously?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Ah, yes, and apparently nothing Kai Cole says about her own life and marriage is to be believed.

    Well, she would say that, wouldn't she? She's either lying to protect herself or she has False Consciousness and needs to Examine a bit more.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Heather Gaye,

    Bechdel test

    FWIW TV seems to be becoming more progressive in this respect. While Fringe commits more travesties against science than your usual scifi pap, I LOVE it for the strong female leads. The only thing that really pisses me off is the fact that Olivia always leaves her top two shirt buttons undone.

    Ditto V, except for the shirt buttons.

    Morningside • Since Nov 2006 • 533 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    For the benefit of those of us who hear about a crazy and terrible blog post and then just to go and find it for ourselves, I assume the post in question is A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly.

    It certainly both crazy and terrible. And probably gets more attention than it warrants. But look, now I've gone and linked to the damn thing.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • JackElder,

    The Bechdel test is really just a rule of thumb, so of course you can come up with more nuanced analyses. But it's a nice rule of thumb to have.

    Wellington • Since Mar 2008 • 709 posts Report Reply

  • Josh Addison,

    Yep, that's the one I read, too. What I found most offensive was the author's explicit refusal to countenance opposing viewpoints in the comments.

    Onehunga, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 298 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    The Bechdel test is really just a rule of thumb

    You know what almost passes the Bechdel rule of thumb? Jane Austen. Except for rule 3, half the time, especially towards the end, and the beginning, and... damn. Well, arguably, given the times, they are talking about their employment options, which is also very important.

    But, the more-than-two-women-and-they-talk-to-each-other bit might explain the popularity of the movie versions.

    Hey, and turns out there is a handy website with a list of recent films that pass the test.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1472 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    For the benefit of those of us who hear about a crazy and terrible blog post and then just to go and find it for ourselves...

    Thanks Russell. That needed doing, because it's rude to talk about how bad something is without letting people decide for themselves, but I really couldn't bring myself to do it. When I first read it, I was going to fisk it, because some of her reasoning is so transparently bad and I wanted to make a comment about how much the cherry-picker must have cost her, but I had a rage-spike every time I tried.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Yep, that's the one I read, too. What I found most offensive was the author's explicit refusal to countenance opposing viewpoints in the comments.

    Just went back and read the comments. I'm genuinely astonished at how much praise was expressed for something so irrational, offensive, hateful and casually demeaning. (That's the post I'm talking about, not the TV show.)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

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