grrr – double double

classic case of being beside oneself...
;- )

going down the gargler...?
well yodel is close to yokel
which is pure country...

...what about those throat singers?
no falsetto there, it's the real thing...

poll dancing

isn't that what Banks, Brown…

Not a fan of yodelling in general, and then the Topp Twins do it, and I think I love it.

I interviewed a yodeller once. Having seen it, ah, up close, I am not a huge fan.

Hmm, maybe there is a line one shouldn't cross.

Yodelling should be regarded as a crime against humanity ;-)

and just like that, Lealand is off the Topp Twins christmas card list...

Not a fan of yodelling in general, and then the Topp Twins do it, and I think I love it. And not a fan of any form…

Did someone call for a contextualising invalid?

As this couldn't get any better, I'm going to go sleepy byes now.

Love your work ;-)

contextually invalid

I might actually put that on a t-shirt.

I
Am
Contextually
Invalid

You're right, of course. Or something ;-)

Did I say I didn't like her music? I had read a lot of the history and had very high expectations (including buying the $20 single). Yes I can appreciate how incredible it is for an 'Oklahoma…

she's a southerner from Oklahoma in her seventies, who grew up steeped in country music, singing rockabilly.

I liked this review of her work at Nae Hauf-Way Hoose.

Yodelling should be regarded as a crime against humanity ;-)

Y'all! I am indignant!

(I wish I could yodel.)

Yodelling should be regarded as a crime against humanity ;-)

and just like that, Lealand is off the Topp Twins christmas card list...

it just wasn't quite as Rock 'n' Roll as say Neil Young, Iggy Pop, John Cale

But... that's a whole different generation of musicians. She comes from a totally different context – she's a southerner from Oklahoma in her seventies, who grew up steeped in country music, singing rockabilly. It's…

2. People who don't like yodelling are... wrong.

Danielle: oh, damn--just when I thought we were music soul-mates. Yodelling should be regarded as a crime against humanity ;-)

And why not — big fat lie that the Devil has all the best tunes. :)

Oh indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdPWrAMXGGo&feature=related

I dig a whole lot of religious music even if I don't go along with the message.

And why not — big fat lie that the Devil has all the best tunes. :)

1. She dated Elvis Presley!!! If I dated Elvis I would mention it every other sentence. I would be like Robbie Krieger talking about Jim Morrison. It's fucking ELVIS, man.

2. People who don't like yodelling are... wrong.…

Who was adorable! (I was reminded a little of the Ray Davies Storytellers-type show I saw some years ago.)

Adorable, yes, in a 'Grandma sings Rockabilly' kind of way. Her voice is certainly noteworthy, but I lost count at about 50 Elvis name drops, and when she yodelled, and found…

but nothing could distract me from a good book during a long bus ride.

That sounds like a challenge, my dear.

Off to see Wanda Jackson.

Who was adorable! (I was reminded a little of the Ray Davies Storytellers-type show I saw some years ago.)

But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Certainly not — you can also turn around and impolitely but firmly tell him to wipe his chin and look out the window or he's on the clock. And no disrespect intended to Frau. von Spangle-Bling's treasure chest, but nothing could…

It's also a feminist statement that we live in a country where slut-shaming is alive and well, but it doesn't take the form of a punch in the mouth from a state-sanctioned clerical goon squad.

You know, I was thinking about this yesterday, as I went home on the bus.…

But in a culture where merely having a female body invites constant judgment and criticism, saying "look at me" can also be feminist.

It's also a feminist statement that we live in a country where slut-shaming is alive and well, but it doesn't take the form of a punch in…

I would give you this from the Guardian, in response to that Ross Douthat column I linked to the other day.

That being said, it's maddening that a party that has resisted every advance of feminism and undermined women's economic strength at every turn…

Probably not safe for work.

Lady Power

It's long and complex, and uses Sartre and de Beauvoir to makes its points, but it's worth reading.

When it comes to her incredibly detailed descriptions of women’s lives, Beauvoir repeatedly stresses that our chances for…

And if choice-feminism is just about saying, "Don't criticise my choices" then it's not about much. That would mean that we could never criticise anyone's choices. And that seems implausible.

Not so much 'don't criticise my choices' (though of course, don't. And if you do, don't be annoying) but respect…

I'm sure plenty of people want to look at Joss's cannon, but he's married. Bomp-bomp!

I read that, and was all 'ooo, I'd like to...but I bet someone has already made that joke'. And It was Danielle. Of course .

I have repressed and deleted so many smutty comments on…

I only saw Top Gun a few years after release, on video. I was genuinely astonished at how homoerotic it was.

It's not homoerotic – it's manly.

Common mistake ;-)

Again, I'm not interested in shutting down women's choices, even if I don't agree with them, whereas Palin does want to remove choice from women.

You'll be alarmed to hear then, that Australia's leading "anti-choice feminist" is headed for New Zealand Details tomorrow.

I would include Emma in this list, except that she rejects the label, and applying a label to someone who has rejected that label is just rude.

To be clear, to Deborah and in general, I have little objection to having the label applied to me, and no objection at…

Some thoughts, nicely numbered, for academic neatness.

@Deborah. Having decided to watch and learn for the remainder of this, your post has clarified many things for me, thanks.

Oh, and that last thing, My Own Private Idaho. River Phoenix? Yeah, well, you know.
He said of the part: __"It strikes…

Perhaps living in a female body makes it easier to be feminist

I'd say living as a *woman* rather than just the biology most associated with that social gender role

Most homoerotic films of recent memory:

Top Gun, by a country mile.

I only saw Top Gun a few years after release, on video. I was genuinely astonished at how homoerotic it was.

You can do that with Wash and Zoe's entire relationship if you want. She's stronger than him in every way, and less emotional.

Totally. That's one thing I found so odd about the fateful blog post in question. It's pretty clear who, er, wears the pants in that relationship.

And…

Most homoerotic films of recent memory:

Top Gun, by a country mile.

The beach volleyball! The towels! The simmering locker room tension! The misquoted dialogue ("You can ride my tail anytime, Iceman")!

Uh, sorry for the threadjack. I'm in a flat spin, heading out to sea.

If you look at Joss's cannon

I'm sure plenty of people want to look at Joss's cannon, but he's married. Bomp-bomp!

(I can't believe it took over four hours for someone to make a penis joke about that typo. Are we slipping?)

Perhaps living in a female body makes it easier to be feminist

Now that I can accept. Seems likely, even, given the comparative numbers that even bother to make the claim that they are feminists.

The theory can inform the action, and actions and events can inform theory. I really don't see how one can exist without the other.

Or how theory (be it feminism or conservatism or any other) unmoderated by experience and reflection on how it works in the messy distruptive world we…

Not sure if The Transporter counts, since I understand that both the director and Jason Statham have stated that his character actually is gay. And then along came a new director on Transporter 3…

The first one in particular is all about luxuriating in the toned, aching body of Bruce W. I suppose you could call it homoerotic, but it seems simpler to just call it erotic.

or maybe homo-erratic
or even homo-operatic...

I'm sorry Emma, but just because we really, really like it doesn't make it "not sexist".

Alright, alright, I'll bite. Bear in mind I like Bond movies and Raymond Chandler, so I don't need to believe the things I like aren't sexist just 'cause.

Decisions? They get made by Mr…

Strange Days I found a bit disjointed, but again it's been a while.

Specifically, they referred to the scene at the beginning where Keanu rolls around in the rain and mud in a tight t-shirt, the camera lovingly caressing his every contour in the slowest of slo-mo.

Ah, but what do you make of male-directed films such as the Die Hard series? The…

Nope. Loved Strange Days, me.

Colour me mildly surprised.

WRT to Bigelow's films, I remember reading an article somewhere that outlined how 'point break' was, for the writer, their first realisation that films could be made by women, for (to an extent) women.

Specifically, they referred to the scene at…

Or by Jayne (I didn't say *good* decisions).

'Aint it interesting, though, that the only person Jayne is thoroughly intimidated by is "the whore"? And to be quite honest, the discourse around Inara is a quite fascinating (and disturbing) Rorschach blot for the sections of science fiction fandom who just…

the little-sister-victim-being-taken-care-of-by-big-brother

misreading the power of that character for starters

But then you see "Firefly must be sexist because it doesn't pass the Bechdel test"

I love Firefly. And it's great that it's got some competent female characters with real roles. It's a vast step forward beyond much complete dross on TV. But it's sexist.

"less sexist than most" -…

I should clarify it's the separate-ness I'm grateful for

Oh, I'm grateful for lesbians too. Some of my best friends, etc.

Well, thanks to the wonderful literary archaeology of Persephone Books (http://www.persephonebooks.co.uk/ ), there's a wonderful body of book by women who lived through both World Wars

Fantastic books, and yet another example of how women's cultural production (or cultural production about women) has been undervalued. All of these books are…

Just went back and read the comments. I'm genuinely astonished at how much praise was expressed for something so irrational, offensive, hateful and casually demeaning.

From all the mentions of very mildly critical posts that were deleted, and from that the author herself says, I get the impression she just…

(The meat of the speech starts about two minutes in. The point where I always start crying is about 6:30)

I believe it is at 6:27, to be precise. Love.

And let me respond with a quote from Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic."

Right, now to cleanse my palate with the speech. Oh Joss. I heart you.

I think I read somewhere she never has two male characters talking in a scene where there isn't a lady present, because she didn't have any experience on how they behave in such circumstances.

It is oft-repeated, and I think 95% true. A friend in grad school was adamant that…

There was also a bit of 'seriously? Are you nuts?'

I'll need to come back to this – my eyes glazed over in self-defense after the first few sentences of tosh

for sexuality? For gender?

Femaleness? Maleness?

You must start with the perceived sexuality (socially, actually,cellually.)

And then – there is a huge lovely swamp of humans who dont fit ordinary criteria-

It's more like a hashtag for denigrating other women.

Did that even make sense?

Sadly, yes. But remember, to a certain type of mind the apostate is always more contemptible than the infidel.

That has to be one of my favourite films of all time. I love Weixel's last line:…

Did that even make sense?

I loved that film and still think about the woman who just wanted to make a beautiful wrought iron gate.

'Was that so much to want?' Breaks my heart every time.

That has to be one of my favourite films of all time. I love Weixel's last line: 'We were…

I was thinking about films – Jane Campion: Bright…

And there I was, distracted by changing nappies and washing window-frames (feministly, natch) and generally failing to read the piece at all. To the interwebs! To (no doubt) splutter with incoherent rage!

I can't believe you were doing all that while someone was wrong on the internet.

I think I read somewhere she never has two male characters talking in a scene where there isn't a lady present, because she didn't have any experience on how they behave in such circumstances.

Or it could be that Miss Austen thought other writers did the masculine world perfectly well…

Ah! Now you are clearly being sarcastic! Right....?

Nope. Loved Strange Days, me.

And yeah, I was pretty much torn between "Don't read this, Danielle, it's bad for your head" and "Please read this Danielle, because I want to see your reaction"

And there I was, distracted by changing nappies and washing window-frames (feministly, natch) and generally failing to read the piece at…

Strange Days was a pretty shining example of feminist cinema I thought.

Ah! Now you are clearly being sarcastic! Right....?

You know what almost passes the Bechdel rule of thumb? Jane Austen. Except for rule 3, half the time, especially towards the end, and the beginning, and... damn. Well, arguably, given the times, they are talking about their employment options, which is also very important.

But, the more-than-two-women-and-they-talk-to-each-other bit might…

And yeah, I was pretty much torn between "Don't read this, Danielle, it's bad for your head" and "Please read this Danielle, because I want to see your reaction"

I showed it to my darling. The polite description of her response would be "indignant". I'm going for the way she…

haven't seen it, don't intend to, because I'm not interested in spending $40 on babysitting in order to see it.

I am sure a truly pro-feminist husband would put the kids to bed while you went out and enjoyed this epic on your own :-)

Well, that's what I did.…

For example, I'm sure Russell didn't mind that I didn't turn PA into a way station to Clint Heine's *cough* little Photoshop mash-up of Helen Clark's face and she-male porn. It needed to be called out, but I wasn't going to circulate it any further.

Oh, of course. There is…

And yeah, I was pretty much torn between "Don't read this, Danielle, it's bad for your head" and "Please read this Danielle, because I want to see your reaction".

Got to say my head didn't feel good after that toxic brew of ideological slut-shaming, concern-trolling, never letting the goalposts stand…

Well, I've got to take my share of that spank, and it's an excellent general principle but there's some crap so vile that if you really can't take my word for it Google is your friend.

The spanking was mostly for me, though [third time today I have edited a…

Thanks Russell. That needed doing, because it's rude to talk about how bad something is without letting people decide for themselves

Well, I've got to take my share of that spank, and it's an excellent general principle but there's some crap so vile that if you really can't take my…

Also: "I'm gonna go get hammered with Papyrus." Doubly awesome.

Along similar lines, I try to use sans-serif fonts because that's what real socialists use.

Wot, like comic sans? Respect!

The feminist community is not one that I consider to be feminist. I moved to wordpress because that is where the radical feminists are

People's Front of Judea. Splitters!

For the benefit of those of us who hear about a crazy and terrible blog post and then just to go and find it for ourselves, I assume the post in question is A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly.

Well, thank you, that was... diverse. I…

Yep, that's the one I read, too. What I found most offensive was the author's explicit refusal to countenance opposing viewpoints in the comments.

Just went back and read the comments. I'm genuinely astonished at how much praise was expressed for something so irrational, offensive, hateful and casually demeaning. (That's…

For the benefit of those of us who hear about a crazy and terrible blog post and then just to go and find it for ourselves...

Thanks Russell. That needed doing, because it's rude to talk about how bad something is without letting people decide for themselves, but I really…

The Bechdel test is really just a rule of thumb

You know what almost passes the Bechdel rule of thumb? Jane Austen. Except for rule 3, half the time, especially towards the end, and the beginning, and... damn. Well, arguably, given the times, they are talking about their employment options,…

It certainly both crazy and terrible. And…

Bechdel test

FWIW TV seems to be becoming more progressive in this respect. While Fringe commits more travesties against science than your usual scifi pap, I LOVE it for the strong female leads. The only thing that really pisses me off is the fact that Olivia always leaves her top…

Ah, yes, and apparently nothing Kai Cole says about her own life and marriage is to be believed.

Well, she would say that, wouldn't she? She's either lying to protect herself or she has False Consciousness and needs to Examine a bit more.

Ben, I find it interesting (note: not snark, I genuinely find it interesting) that this list is entirely 'things one does', not 'things one thinks'. So... how far down that list do I have to go?

I was fairly careful to say "Their idea of feminism is X", rather than…

Bugger, I was just going to bring that up, assuming that the one I've read is the same one that you're talking about – is this the one that concludes that Mr. Whedon almost certainly beats his wife?

Ah, yes, and apparently nothing Kai Cole says about her own life…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

(The meat of the speech starts about two minutes in. The point where I always start crying is about 6:30)

And also that said wife is a gender traitor who has sold out for money and fame.

These sound like excellent reasons to sell out. If you're gonna do it, might as well do well out of it.

assuming that the one I've read is the same one that you're talking about – is this the one that concludes that Mr. Whedon almost certainly beats his wife?

Yes. At least, it better be, because if there are two I might cry.

And also that said wife is a…

I'd be keen to hear more from Josh and others about some of the relevant academic points about that, but that's just me.

Sorry, just noticed that. I can't really offer any stirling academic insights – A) It was 1997 and I can barely remember any of it, and B)…

(Please, don't make me link to the famous Joss Whedon is a Sexist Arsehole essay, please.)

Bugger, I was just going to bring that up, assuming that the one I've read is the same one that you're talking about – is this the one that concludes that Mr. Whedon almost…

Is that at all like Giovanni's link to the 'The Wire is actually totally racist, y'all' blog entry?

Yes. But longer ago, and I am still angry about it.

Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity

Ooooh. Can we just take a moment to think about Barbara Stanwyck in that role, tool of the patriarchy or not? Swoon.

(Please, don't make me link to the famous Joss Whedon is a Sexist Arsehole essay, please.)

Is that at all like Giovanni's link…

(FWIW, the most offensive film I've ever seen that didn't involve violence.)

If you want to cleanse your palate, I suggest tracking down Nancy Savoca's Dogfight — not a flawless piece of work, by any measure, but Lili Taylor and River Phoenix are downright heart-breaking in a movie whose plot…

But I suspect firefly isn't the kind of thing the Bechdel test is aimed at. More like this abomination (FWIW, the most offensive film I've ever seen that didn't involve violence.)

Oh, Alec Baldwin's been in some shit...

And yes. I think the test itself is useful overall, for demonstrating…

It really is. I'm stymied. Um. I hear good things about Please Give, by Nicole Holofcener, but haven't seen it myself yet.

Which is a nice opening to remind folks in Noo Zild that New Zealand International Film Festivals approach... The Auckland and Wellington schedules (including Holofcener's latest) are live.…

(Gah, I feel like I'm not explaining my problem here very well. Perhaps I can psychically communicate it to someone else who can do a better job.)

I think you explained it perfectly well.

But I suspect firefly isn't the kind of thing the Bechdel test is aimed at. More…

it gives no weight to the content of the man-woman conversations.

How's this? The test makes sexist assumptions about the nature of a conversation based on who's having it.

Craig! I've been waiting for you all morning, my darling. I knew you'd be able to help us with the film stuff. :)

Aww... you be sweet. But I've got to admit I'm a huge fan of film noir and the quote unquote "woman's picture", and if you want to…

Shall we talk about how few women directors there have been in the history of Western cinema?

Only if you want a reprise of how thoroughly fucked off I get at the sight of women like Kathryn Bigelow, Gale Ann Hurd and Jane Espenson not only having to choke on…

Jane Campion's Sweetie fits that particular description for me.

Agree with that.

Thanks for the retweet Jolisa ;-) That TWTATL soundtrack is great.
Spooky probably my favourite.

I would say that if you said your idea of feminism was to be completely submissive to men

What about a woman whose kink is that very thing?

Lets talk about art.

Please, let's not. Or copyright.
Think of the children.

People really often make this mistake about what is and isn't art.

They say "that's not art" when what they really mean is "that's bad art".

If you push them they'll say that of course not all art is good and of course bad art exists.…

I *loved* that movie

Same. Unapologetically local, good script, good actors, tasty soundtrack, locations I recognised...

One result is that many of the public voices you hear are our parents

Can I add that parental love is a strong motivator to act on behalf of our children, and I wouldn't want to see that change. Get more balance by strengthening disabled people's voices.

Surprisingly rarely passed. Firefly – written by someone who talks a lot about advancing feminism and the importance of strong female characters -…

Topless Women Talk About Their Lives
and a great local soundtrack, too...
On high rotate in our house, even all these years later.

Us too! I *loved* that movie when it first came out. I was all 'it's me! and my friends!' I wonder if it still holds up? (And…

I found Shirley Valentine to be a touching film about a woman's struggle against a number of oppressions.

Jane Campion's Sweetie fits that particular description for me.

and a great local soundtrack, too...

On high rotate in our house, even all these years later.

Topless Women Talk About Their Lives

and a great local soundtrack, too...

The thing is, gender discrimination hurts _everyone_. It's not just a women's fight.

I agree, though the position of ally is a tricky one to pull off. I'd be keen to hear more from Josh and others about some of the relevant academic points about that, but that's just me.…

Shall we talk about how few women directors there have been in the history of Western cinema?

Carol Reed? ;)

Shall we talk about how few women directors there have been in the history of Western cinema?

We could, but I would be so far out of my area of expertise that I'll just have to nod and smile. (Which at this point, some people might appreciate.)

The weird thing is that it's, obviously, such a huge market, yet so poorly served.

And it is only getting worse. (That's a fairly old article, but I don't see it having improved, much.)

Kind of obvious I suppose, but maybe this; Topless Women Talk About Their Lives. Is that TOFO enough? Was made by a man but, so possibly not.

Excellent title! Odd little film, funny and sweet and also weird, partly as a function of having been shot in 5 min chunks…

If SATC2 is a foolish film, where can I find a good film about women and their lives?

You know, that's a bloody good question.

The weird thing is that it's, obviously, such a huge market, yet so poorly served.

If SATC2 is a foolish film, where can I find a good film about women and their lives?

You know, that's a bloody good question.

It really is. I'm stymied. Um. I hear good things about Please Give, by Nicole Holofcener, but haven't seen it myself yet. Please give more…

The Bechdel test:

Yes, and it's a pass for SATC, at least in the olden days.

Yeah, but SATC II fails the Wegan test for being unconscionably stupid. (Which is not to say…

John Campbell who sometimes mentions Victoria's then Women's Studies department and what he learned there about objectifying women

I think I know what you mean, but something about the…

The Bechdel test:

Yes, and it's a pass for SATC, at least in the olden days.

Several men have taken GWS courses,…

(And not to pick on you Heather, a couple of people have said this, you're just the most recent)
Yeah, but what does that mean? Someone else mentioned 'collective action', in which case I am going to have to hand back my membership card.

Wouldn't dare speak for the borg,…

IF SATC2 is a foolish film, where can I find a good film about women and their lives?

You know, that's a bloody good question.

It is. This is interesting:

The Bechdel test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLF6sAAMb4s

http://bechdeltest.com/.

See, the concerning thing about how I spend my days is that I can not tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

I was not being sarcastic. (Oh, reaaallly? And so forth, ad libitum.) (But really, I wasn't.)

But sometimes I get the feeling the other side isn't listening.

Isn't that the problem with every broad-church progressive movement, though? We gather around in little groups to endlessly rag on each other and eat our young, while the actual douchebags often get a semi-free pass. (See also: pinko commies,…

I might just have to concede the point, you make a pretty tight case.

See, the concerning thing about how I spend my days is that I can not tell if you are being sarcastic or not. :)

Yikes. Again, someone who's either mega-etiquette-deficient, or amazingly self-confident. Blokes say uncompromising stuff like that all the time. But I would hope not an indictment of an entire movement?

Sure. But I don't really understand how telling me I am doing something Bad for Women can really be good for…

The thing is, gender discrimination hurts _everyone_. It's not just a women's fight. And if there are men willing to stand up and say "I am a feminist", then more power to them.

I might just have to concede the point, you make a pretty tight case.

IF SATC2 is a foolish film, where can I find a good film about women and their lives?

Kind of obvious I suppose, but maybe this; Topless Women Talk About Their Lives. Is that TOFO enough? Was made by a man but, so possibly not.

As per example, this dude.

SATC2 is giving rise to some impassioned reviews.

Isn't that a good thing?

IF SATC2 is a foolish film, where can I find a good film about women and their lives?

Go check out any of the many threads on Boobquake.

Ah, I see. What I saw of those particular threads looked, to me, like healthy and contentious debate, at the interface of two very strong and interesting arguments. But I see how it felt different to others.

P'raps we need…

Golly, who are these women?? I dunno if they're feminists or not, but they sound a smidge deficient in the etiquette department, not to mention the persuasiveness stakes. Do they doorknock, or do you meet them at social events, or what? Seriously.

I'll answer this on Emma's behalf. Go check…

I've only recently fully embraced the "feminist" epithet, after most of my life being a kind of…

Because, not unlike other ideologies, it is meaningless without lived experience.

@Gio: There's something niggling me about that. Fran Wilde and Katherine O'Regan have precisely zero "lived experience" as gay men. Still rather pleased they stepped up and put their names on the legislation that makes sure my private, consensual…

To be in this world in a way that is equal to their male counterparts.

I liked your post, Jackie.

I can't identify with SATC but I did bristle at a Hubbard's View cartoon in the Northern Advocate this afternoon that was based on the Australian football team being dubbed…

Possibly more than slightly tangential, but today this post from one of my favourite blogs has been going round and round in my head, sparking a lot of 'yeah, maybe, I dunno, maybe'.

That post built up to a rather cracking finale.

Nevertheless, it feels weird to see people telling other people they they can or can't be feminists directly underneath a post that contains:

Should we just accept that then? It sounded to me more like a starting point for discussion than the end of the argument.

I'm not trying to suggest imagination is a perfect substitute for experience.

It seems to me that you've walked into "men imagining how women feel isn't a perfect substitute for their experience", which possibly leads to "men can't be feminists", if your definition of feminism revolves around some decent level…

(The blog is called "Let Them Eat Pro-SM Feminist Safe Spaces", but Trinity doesn't identify as a…

However I suspect that none of these things are anywhere near the same experience as it actually happening.

I guess that comes down to how vivid an imagination you have.

I'm not trying to suggest imagination is a perfect substitute for experience. That's crazy. You can't learn to swim by…

More generally how valid is identifying yourself as a practicioner of a philosophy? As opposed to seeing how your actions affect others?

Are those two things mutually exclusive? I mean, I'm fairly label-averse all round (except for all those stereotypical things I can't quite find that I've been saying about…

See, what happens when you buy into this wholesale is the extremely frustrating conversations I had with feminists at university – the place where I stopped calling myself a feminist, and which might be relevant to Jolisa's question if I thought I could answer that without getting really angry. The…

Now, I have never experienced doing the same work for a lower rate of pay, but that doesn't mean I'm not a feminist

You know what it's like to be a woman in a world where these discriminations still exist, though, right? And besides your feminism will be inflected by…

If you imagine something exactly how it actually is, then you have an experience of it. You experience your imaginings, after all.

I think in a lot of experiences that's going to fall apart. I can imagine being raped. If I was shown a reenactment of someone being raped, or…

And seeing as feminism, in however broad a way you want to look at it, is also about the right of women to speak for themselves, I'm quite happy to accept that their utterances on the subject have inherently greater value than mine.

Doesn't that get us back to essentialism…

Experiencing and imagining are quite different things.

I'm not sure if that's cast in stone, TBH. If you imagine something exactly how it actually is, then you have an experience of it. You experience your imaginings, after all.

The chances of it being similar are related to how much effort…

Experiencing and imagining are quite different things.

Yes!
And... no!
(This is bloody complicated territory... since a/ everyone's experience is inherently private yet b/ we can and do talk meaningfully of sharing experiences (in a wide range of ways) and c/ empathy is a key human trait (or it used…

I really don't see why not. If feminism is an ideology, and as loose and open a one as people seem to be saying generally here, then why can't a man be a feminist?

William Moulton Marston comes to mind.

I can imagine what it is like, too. It's not even very hard

Experiencing and imagining are quite different things.

Yet I'm never going to know what it feels like to be autistic, nor what it feels like to have my rights advocated for, for that matter.

Autism is a condition, not a position. You don't become autistic by subscribing to the doctrine of autism.

I can imagine what it…

See, what happens when you buy into this wholesale is the extremely frustrating conversations I had with feminists at university

I sympathise with you, but surely not all appeals to experience have to be used as bludgeons, but also for what they can contribute. I consider myself lacking in the…

Well I think at least round here, it's been badly enough argued to be associated with two things

– false dichotomy – it's shoes OR political activism, you can't have both

Wait, what? Who at PAS ever said you had to be barefoot or boringly shod to be an activist?…

Because, not unlike other ideologies, it is meaningless without lived experience. I don't think I could be rich and be a socialist.

Unless this stipulation is "By definition" then I disagree. It doesn't seem contradictory that you could believe in socialism (and thus be a socialist), and yet not actually…

Because, not unlike other ideologies, it is meaningless without lived experience.

See, what happens when you buy into this wholesale is the extremely frustrating conversations I had with feminists at university – the place where I stopped calling myself a feminist, and which might be relevant to Jolisa's question if…

I am the parent of a girl. I am a feminist in that I champion her rights to autonomy of person-hood, which involves challenging patriarchal beliefs . This requires my applying feminist ideology.

You can champion her rights to autonomy through an egalitarian or liberal philospohy, with the added benefit…

I am the parent of a girl. I champion her rights to autonomy of person-hood, which involves challenging patriarchal beliefs with feminist ideology. That makes me a feminist.

Good point. And I'm sure I'll be an advocate for my daughter, probably in ways that she herself couldn't be. Yet I'm…

Can someone explain why the idea of 'false consciousness' is such a big joke these days? I don't get it.

Well I think at least round here, it's been badly enough argued to be associated with two things

– false dichotomy – it's shoes OR political activism, you can't have…

Feminism – free to fuck up. Your life, your decisions, your responsibility. Just because you are an autonomous adult.
I don't think I need more than that

But with respect, Raymond, you need a hell of a lot more than that to get to the point where that definition makes…

I just like the simplicityof Stef's statement

And it fits so well with my personal veiws

If feminism is an ideology, and as loose and open a one as people seem to be saying generally here, then why can't a man be a feminist?

is the world ready for... Femenism! ©

...but "feminists" implies the Borg

fem-in-nine = seven-of-nine?