"The Terrorism Files"

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  • binary.heart,

    "And I don't think Tainui are going to be too impressed at the way Nanaia Mahuta was humiliated either."

    I was standing 15-20 metres away from her as she was giving the speech. She choose to not use the megaphone to talk to hundreds of people. There were calls of 'kupapa', from where I was standing there was just as many calls for her to use the megaphone so they could hear her speak. She got a better reception than most politicians in front of an 'unsympathetic' audience. I don't know anything about the iwi politics though to comment on how Tainui people might feel.

    Incidentally before she spoke she wandered through the crowd past me and appeared unconcerned

    Sophie Wilson said:

    "Can you understand how the haka can be primarily seen as a negative thing in this context?"

    I can, but I think people need to reflect more on why that is the case than they have been. I don't find arguments about they should have thought about how the media would present this particularly convincing, but I don't have time to go in to this further other to say that such a march is a political space which you ask people to participate in. Marches about popular issues should not be stage-managed events.

    In terms of other comments the whole demonstration/hikoi the whole event took at least 4 hours and despite the anger it was determined peaceful and lawful by the police. Is it too much too much to ask that the tv news media spend 5 seconds on that side of it.

    "As a Maori and New Zealand woman I will stand behind it as part of my cultural heritage. But soon as the haka is dressed with real anger and frustration and no clear direction of this anger "

    There was a _clear direction_ behind the haka that was done at parliament it was to the politicians at parliament, also I think the people of Tuhoe have every right to be angry at the police and this was the clear direction of anger at the police HQ.

    I simply don't agree with this:

    "demonstrators over the past month have been unravelling their good work with every placard that says “Activism not Terrorism” and with every young chap in an orange jumpsuit referencing Guantanamo bay."

    The activism not terrorism is I think easy to understand. The orange jumpsuit (referencing Guantanamo and what our friends were wearing when we visited them in jail), was the only salvageable action from the media coverage of the Labour Party conference debacle. Hell, even Chris Trotter liked it, and he's frighteningly hard to please these days.

    "I'm afraid the 128 open day did not affect the risk of the general public thinking of the activists as over reacting, mis-contextualising terrorists."

    I've heard this line once from a conservative farmer who was making a joke at the time. Maybe it's more common that I thought and I'm wrapped up in my Welly bubble, but I think most people here do get there is a difference.

    Sophie said "I saw the hikoi and the fleet of cars where all I could see were camo, balaclava, black and red as well as angry shouting at the public. It felt as though the Tuhoe fleet were ready for war, and this had my reptilian brain deciding whether I should fight or run. Yes this reaction reflects on me as a person because I am human."

    When I made that statement about how much it reflects on the viewer I hadn't in mind our reptile heritage, and more recently evolved prejudiced and social mores.

    The point I wanted to make is that there was more to the march than presented in the media, and I think on a day like this, the media should be nothing short of accurate and fair.

    I'm sorry to go through point by point and I don't think I've responded as well as I could have. For what its worth, If you want to talk in person about your thoughts email me on binary.heart1@gmail.com. It would be interesting to hear more.

    Bob said:

    "That 60 houses were searched nationwide"

    That was my personal estimate after reviewing most of the media reports at the time (there have been some which were reported in local media which haven't been picked up elsewhere ie Wairoa ) and asking around, I then confirmed this with someone who is formally researching this. At least one of the people raided have said they were too intimidated to make a fuss because the police had said they'd come back and arrest them. I imagine that story is fairly common.

    "but of the 16 arrested only 3 were Tuhoe and only 3 others Maori."

    My current count is 10 are maori or have maori ancestry. Three of these people are more publically identified with peace and social justice concerns. The raids were predominantly against those who were involved in Maori politics (or their friends and relatives). I'm not sure of which iwi they belong to in all cases, but the majority are not Tuhoe.

    Since Nov 2007 • 19 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    "I don't know what the lawful route for that would be and in my position I have to advise people to act lawfully."

    My translation: I'm kinda happy that this has all come out as it takes the pressure off me and the police. But as PM I have to say my line of 'people should follow the law'.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Hosking,

    Craig wrote:

    I'd respectfully suggest if you smuggled a camera into the Press Gallery Christmas party you could paint a vastly entertaining, but ever so slightly misleading, picture of the media as a pack of drunken, bitchy priapic lunatics. Whether or not that's a bad thing, I'm not so sure. :)

    Well...last year the DomPost had some photos from that party on its functions page. the usual thing of people standing around with drinks laughing.

    How, though, would you represent bitchiness photographically? Even drunkenness and lunacy is a stretch. As for priapism, that requires some fairly specific photography and it doesn't really account for all the women present....

    South Roseneath • Since Nov 2006 • 830 posts Report Reply

  • binary.heart,

    To clarify:

    "I'm not sure of which iwi they belong to in all cases, but the majority are not Tuhoe."

    I was referring to the arrested people here.

    Since Nov 2007 • 19 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    The point I wanted to make is that there was more to the march than presented in the media, and I think on a day like this, the media should be nothing short of accurate and fair.

    I hope that the media does that every day. I'm not sure why they'd suddenly start just because Tuhoe have come to town.

    Maori have plenty of experience with not being treated fairly by the mainstream media, I can't imagine they thought that they were going to get an in depth, balanced, analytical, put in context, 10 minute TV news item last night. The media were going to cover the most interesting and visual/aurally exciting bits, in sound bites. Tuhoe gave them bandanas and full on haka, so that's what ended up on the box.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    "That 60 houses were searched nationwide"

    That was my personal estimate after reviewing most of the media reports at the time (there have been some which were reported in local media which haven't been picked up elsewhere ie Wairoa ) and asking around, I then confirmed this with someone who is formally researching this. At least one of the people raided have said they were too intimidated to make a fuss because the police had said they'd come back and arrest them. I imagine that story is fairly common.

    "but of the 16 arrested only 3 were Tuhoe and only 3 others Maori."

    My current count is 10 are maori or have maori ancestry. Three of these people are more publically identified with peace and social justice concerns. The raids were predominantly against those who were involved in Maori politics (or their friends and relatives). I'm not sure of which iwi they belong to in all cases, but the majority are not Tuhoe.

    Thanks BH. Lovely to see data amongst all the opinion!

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    last year the DomPost had some photos from that party on its functions page. the usual thing of people standing around with drinks laughing.

    How, though, would you represent bitchiness photographically?

    Perhaps one could take the photo's around midnite, and not 9pm?

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    The orange jump suit thing is interesting. I must admit that my immediate thought was that it was an unjustified allusion to Guantanamo Bay. I bet that's what everyone who saw it thought too.

    I guess this is why there is such a thing as the PR professional (and look how often they get it wrong too).

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    In terms of other comments the whole demonstration/hikoi the whole event took at least 4 hours and despite the anger it was determined peaceful and lawful by the police. Is it too much too much to ask that the tv news media spend 5 seconds on that side of it.

    I think that if you go to the TV3 and TVNZ web sites you'll see that they spent considerably more than 5 seconds on that aspect of the protest - but that like everybody else in the country that watched the coverage you only remember the sensational images that the news shows lead with, that made the march look more like a Hamas funeral than a Hikoi.

    Not really an option once they'd already arrived in Wellington, and for anyone in a position to discuss it with them beforehand, what if they'd refused to listen and just insisted that nobody can tell them how to dress?

    Then surely its their freaking fault that they wound up as the lead item on the news and not the big bad media's?

    The special pleading going on here is reaching self-parody levels: if people decide to stockpile guns, train how to use them and muse about murdering people for practice it's the fault of the police for listening to them; if people dress up as terrorists and dance around in front of a TV camera its the fault of the media for putting it on TV!

    The cognitive dissonance around here is deafening.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    dressing up as terrorists

    Surely a real terrorist, as opposed to a comedy one, would dress as inconspicuously as possible so as to remain undetected while carrying out their dastardly deeds?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • commie mutant traitor,

    I must admit that my immediate thought was that it was an unjustified allusion to Guantanamo Bay.

    Why unjustified? In both cases people were locked up for extended periods without charge (the firearms charges didn't justify denial of bail), and mostly turned out to be innocent (12 of the 17 never expressed any desire to commit terrorist acts, let alone planned them). Fortunately the NZ version only dragged out for a month rather than years, but that doesn't make it ok.

    Then surely its their freaking fault that they wound up as the lead item on the news and not the big bad media's?

    The 50's fault, not the 1450's fault. And the media still had the choice of how to portray the event.

    if people decide to stockpile guns, train how to use them and muse about murdering people for practice it's the fault of the police for listening to them

    Not at all; keeping an eye on them was perfectly sensible.

    Since Nov 2007 • 22 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I thought I should go back and read John Minto's Press column to make sure I wasn't misquoting him.

    I wasn't, but parts of what he wrote seem a little ironic now, in that he wished the "laughable" evidence in court hadn't been suppressed so everyone could see it (and no, he wasn't referring to the full body of evidence, but what the police presented at bail hearings, which seems to represent part of the affadavit) and he wasn't satisfied with waiting for a day in court:

    So the police proceeded to spend the next 20 minutes or so reading what they regarded as the juiciest excerpts from the surveillance transcripts. These were obtained by bugging conversations in a car on a couple of road trips.

    I'd like to record here the details of these transcripts but that evidence is suppressed. Suffice to say, these conversations were nothing one wouldn't hear on a Saturday afternoon at any gun club around New Zealand – even before the beer comes out.

    It was all quite surreal. Those of us sitting in court were incredulous. The lack of substance to the evidence we heard was frankly embarrassing.

    Rongomai was given bail but the bigger question of how he ever came to be arrested in the first place is utterly beyond me and I have no confidence it will ever be answered satisfactorily.

    On the police action in general the feeling of New Zealanders seems to be we should just let this whole legal process play out and see what's left after the evidence is tested in court. This seems the only sensible approach but it's just not good enough. It leaves very difficult questions unanswered ...

    The case itself will take at least 18 months to get to court and whatever the outcome, enormous damage will be done in the meantime. The New Zealand public will be softened up to accept we have terrorist threats or potential terrorist threats in the country which justify the huge additional resources given to the police and SIS since September 11, 2001. This will be seen by many to validate the existing Terrorism Suppression Act and its various amendments and the unthinking will accept even greater restrictions on our civil liberties.

    To be fair, he is now calling for a public inquiry with full disclosure.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Fortunately the NZ version only dragged out for a month rather than years, but that doesn't make it ok.

    And it doesn't remotely justify your comparison either. The people arrested on October 15 had swift access to lawyers and actually appeared in a court, two features notably absent from the actual Guantanamo experience.

    I'm also fairly sure that the 17 weren't physically or psychologically tortured; or picked up at random and stuffed into searingly hot containers to share with the dead and dying; or driven to suicide.

    Honestly, your point is just plain silly if, unfortunately, typical of the rhetoric around this.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison,

    The atrocities that have occurred in the midst of our communities under the name of terrorism have brought out the worse of prejudice and fear and political name-calling that this House has witnessed for some time.

    Tariana displaying her fine sense of irony.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • commie mutant traitor,

    these conversations were nothing one wouldn't hear on a Saturday afternoon at any gun club around New Zealand – even before the beer comes out

    Note that Minto's statement is in relation to Rongomai's bail hearing, so presumably the evidence in question consisted only of material involving Rongomai. It's very likely that none of the quotes published by the Dominion Post were aired in court that day.

    Since Nov 2007 • 22 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Note that Minto's statement is in relation to Rongomai's bail hearing, so presumably the evidence in question consisted only of material involving Rongomai. It's very likely that none of the quotes published by the Dominion Post were aired in court that day.

    I guess so. I thought the fact that quite a number of the Dom Post quotes came from bugged car trips suggested it might have been from the same bundle.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Maureen Jansen,

    Just back - new things teasing my mind - Breakfast today - Paul Henry this am laughing at Marc Ellis's smoke bombs on Rangitoto Island. "I think it's a clever idea" - because it was fertiliser - and his blonde co-host said "yes, I agree with you" (Pippa Wetzel always agrees with him too - how CAN they?)

    As Libby Hakaraia pointed out on nat rad if Tame Iti had let off a smoke bomb on Rangi and scared Aucklanders to promote his cause, he would have been demonised.

    My distaste at Henry's humour was environmental - I love that island - what sacrilege - but heck, Libby has a point. We do have two NZs

    Rotorua • Since Nov 2006 • 16 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    The special pleading going on here is reaching self-parody levels: if people decide to stockpile guns, train how to use them and muse about murdering people for practice it's the fault of the police for listening to them; if people dress up as terrorists and dance around in front of a TV camera its the fault of the media for putting it on TV!

    The cognitive dissonance around here is deafening.

    Nice post Danyl. You get pie _and_ cake. Not irl. But y'know. Feel good about it.

    Honestly, your point is just plain silly if, unfortunately, typical of the rhetoric around this.

    What RB said x2.

    Maureen, Marc Ellis is an idiot. At the very least, someone should be waving around 'wasting police time' for not telling emergency services beforehand about it. Rangitoto is DOC isn't it? Wonder what they have to say about it.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Felix Marwick,

    I'd respectfully suggest if you smuggled a camera into the Press Gallery Christmas party you could paint a vastly entertaining, but ever so slightly misleading, picture of the media as a pack of drunken, bitchy priapic lunatics. Whether or not that's a bad thing, I'm not so sure. :)

    Craig,

    were you at our party last year???

    Spooky ;-)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 200 posts Report Reply

  • Terence Wood,

    Re the Hikoi:

    If Tuhoe and their supporters wanted to let NZ know that they were angry, then they succeeded. If they wanted to strategically gain public support, then it seems like they failed. But, after all they've been through over the last few weeks (not to mention the last few hundred years), who can blame them if it was the anger that was afforded front stage.

    Russell (et al), if - in the very recent past - the police held you spread-eagled on the ground for several hours while your kids were locked in a shed, how strategically do you think you would be thinking at present?*

    Once again, I think the people quoted in the Dompost are nut jobs, and anyone who was genuinely planning acts of violence way, way, way beyond the pale. However, by all accounts, what happened to the people of Ruatoke and surrounds, was completely over the top and, given that the police no real reason to expect armed resistance (everyone had gone home from the camps remember), pretty damn repulsive.


    =======
    *I'm assuming here that my memory from the foggy mists of this morning is correct and that the allegation made on National Radio was true.

    Since Nov 2006 • 148 posts Report Reply

  • Terence Wood,

    Oh - one other thought.

    Assuming that: the affidavit that was leaked contained all the police's key evidence - from a year +'s investigation.

    Assuming that: the Dompost mined this for the most sensational claims.

    ...does the evidence that we have read really indicate a likely terrorist attack? As opposed to the idol boasts of some very silly and nasty people?

    These aren't rhetorical questions - I'm genuinely interested what people think. Yesterday, my thoughts on this were quite different from what they are today.

    Since Nov 2006 • 148 posts Report Reply

  • binary.heart,

    Danyl said: "I think that if you go to the TV3 and TVNZ web sites you'll see that they spent considerably more than 5 seconds on that aspect of the protest - but that like everybody else in the country that watched the coverage you only remember the sensational images that the news shows lead with, that made the march look more like a Hamas funeral than a Hikoi."

    I only watched the late One News and there was no attempt to cover the aspect that I've mentioned. I am not asking for preferential treatment for Tuhoe, but on the day that the media generally have tried to present themselves as serving the public interest by printing cherry picked statements, from a document that was arranged by the police to secure arrest warrants, I expect them to present all sides carefully. The television media I saw, did not do that. However, there was a more balanced article on Stuff which had a headline along the lines of 'Rowdy but peaceful', but it's been pulled, had it's headline changed, or it was worked into another article. So sorry no link.

    Just to be absolutely clear, I am not complaining the media showed people in balaclavas etc, and to state that is to misrepresent what I've posted.

    For me, the Guantanamo comparison largely sits around the wide net approach that was used on the 16 who were arrested on firearms and TSA charges, and the equating of protest and activism by states around the world with terrorism. The 17th was arrested for having 107 plants of a herbal nature.

    As Russell when said:

    "...but I don't think the links are entirely arbitrary. On the other hand, I do get the impression that some of the 17 were guilty of no more than an association with others, and that there is an element of the corruption of innocents."

    Also, when you look at the overwhelming amount of raids and the lockdown of Ruatoki, there is a pattern which to me is arbitary and completely over the top, which is symptomatic of anti-terrorism operations around the world.

    Defence lawyer Michael Bott did go to the media twice and make comparisons to Guantanamo to illustrate the very serious problems he was having gaining access to his client in both Auckland and Wellington prisons. (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/1421362)

    RB said:

    "I guess so. I thought the fact that quite a number of the Dom Post quotes came from bugged car trips suggested it might have been from the same bundle."

    From what I heard the evidence read out against Rongomai was truly laughable, and I think that's best illustrated by the fact that he got bail earlier than anyone else, despite the fact the police still tried to secure the right to pursue TSA charges.

    In terms of court procedure, I understand transcripts were literally arriving on lawyers desks in court at the bail hearings. I know one received virtually no evidence beyond a statement of facts (and certainly not the prepared affadavit) in the first couple of weeks. Frankly, he appeared somewhat bewildered by how normal conventions and behaviours were not being followed in many ways during the proceedings of the first two weeks. I don't think the evidence read in court that Minto is referring to was the material printed in the Dom Post.

    As an aside, Maia has posted on the evidence, and I think its worth reading:

    http://capitalismbad.blogspot.com/2007/11/evidence.html

    Since Nov 2007 • 19 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    That was my personal estimate after reviewing most of the media reports at the time (there have been some which were reported in local media which haven't been picked up elsewhere ie Wairoa ) and asking around, I then confirmed this with someone who is formally researching this.

    Is someone going to write a book about all this? Hager? Sounds like you are already on to it BH.

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Why unjustified? In both cases people were locked up for extended periods without charge (the firearms charges didn't justify denial of bail), and mostly turned out to be innocent (12 of the 17 never expressed any desire to commit terrorist acts, let alone planned them). Fortunately the NZ version only dragged out for a month rather than years, but that doesn't make it ok.

    WTF? This is nuts.

    The complaint about Guantanamo Bay was that the people detained there were held in an extra-legal state in a military base deliberately off US soil, denied access to normal due processes of justice, denied all manner of rights normally assigned to prisoners etc... all of this done in a very dubious manner with respect to US obligations under international conventions. And it went on for years, and is still going on. Not only that, many of those detained were handed over by afghan warlords being paid by the head for "terrorists" rather than being investigated or arrested by any kind of proper authority.

    Here some people were arrested using legally obtained warrants supported by 150 pages of evidence off the back of millions of dollars worth of hands-off observation by the police, there have been no allegations of beatings, sleep deprivation, unusual interrogation etc, they've had prompt access to their lawyers and they've been bailed as soon as the AG declined to approve terrorism charges. Their innocence or guilt is yet to be decided, so you can't claim that twelve of them have been proven to have acted in a manner undeserving of a month of jail just yet. That's simply an unknown until the evidence comes out, just as claiming they should rot in jail is unsupportable until the trial given the potential maximum sentences for their charges.

    You're suggesting that this is the same thing as the military extra-judicial detainment of prisoners captured in Iraq and Afghanistan? Either you have no idea what was wrong with Guantanamo Bay (and don't really care to think about it either) or you're completely fictionalising your account of what happened in New Zealand.

    The people arrested here spent about as much time in jail as Paris Hilton, that's a more far accurate comparison than those detained at Guantanamo Bay. Except she was detained for more minor crimes than illegal use of firearms. Sorry if my tone seems aggressive, but that's a disgusting and pathetic minimisation of a serious international issue.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    As an aside, Maia has posted on the evidence, and I think its worth reading

    I didn't get much from that posting, but what she said here struck a chord:

    There is a point in here, I think. I hated in the Ahmed Zaoui campaign that his worthiness was always a matter of debate. That he needed to be portrayed as a deeply spirtual man who wrote poetry in order to earn his freedom. We lose if we debate on those terms, because we make rights things we have to earn with perfection. Even though I know that some of those arrested are pretty fucking awesome, I don't think it's their awesomeness which means that they should be free, it's their humanity.

    ...

    So instead, all I can say is that my solidarity for those arrested is not conditional. I stand with my friends, because I know they're human, not in spite of that. I stand with those I don't know, because I know they will have strengths and weaknesses just like those I love. Those arrested I don't like? I'll demand their release, and continue to dislike them just as before.

    And who couldn't like a blog entitled 'Capitalism bad; tree pretty'.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

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