"The Terrorism Files"

850 Responses

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  • David Cauchi,

    Oops, just to clarify, that should be '...equating being accused of racism with facing jail...'

    Wellington • Since Jul 2007 • 121 posts Report Reply

  • Sonic,

    I'm never happy about people wearing masks on a demo (how do you know who they are)

    However given the context of police dawn raids nicking activists it is rather more understandable than usual eh?

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 102 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Thats how the secret state operates, I see no reason it is not the same in NZ.

    Great argument! Let's try the other perspective. The individuals who killed some 3,000 people on September 11th just took a few flying lessons (without caring how they landed), bought some box cutters and talked about killing Americans. That's how terrorists operate, I see no reason it is not the same in NZ.

    Seriously, do you really not see how intellectually lazy that assumption is?

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    Judges tend to take a very dim view of people deliberately trying to derail court proceedings to their advantage. Which is why we don't see defendants doing it.

    I would tend to agree with you there. I did wonder a bit though about why the assumption is that the Police leaked this. It seems like every man and his dog had a copy of this information, why do we automatically assume it came from the Police, when looking at it logically it would be an own-goal from their perspective if they've been found to have leaked it...

    They're already in the muck, they have to be taking some interesting drugs to actively try to sink deeper into it...

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Sonic,

    Ah life, isn't it full of wonderful ironies?

    However being called "intellectually lazy" by someone comparing this situation with 9/11 is one for the scrapbook I must say.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 102 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Sonic, I'm not comparing the situation here to September 11th. I'm pointing out to you how intellectually lazy it is to pick a random happening from overseas and then assuming that because "all people like that are like that" it's the same in NZ.

    In other words, you're seeing irony that is not there. I'm merely showing you your exact argument used by a perspective you don't already agree with.

    If you don't like it that's fine, it's your argument - not mine.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Sykes & co said the TV3 stuff had info not presented to them. So with that we can rule out the defense team.
    The DP though seems to be fairly wide spread info.
    Did Ron Marks lie on RNZ this morn' when he said he only saw it in the DP?

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Sonic,

    Thats right Finn, how dare anyone ever compare anything that happens in NZ to an event overseas.

    A randon happening, like it.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 102 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    Finn,

    I think we're wasting our time actually trying to point out the lack of logic in the stuff sonic says. Any time you point out the flaw, sonic rushes off to another topic that he can make illogical statements about.

    In time, you will be so frustrated that..... Oh bugger it. Activists are only the voice of the oppressed. Police Bad, Terror good.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison,

    Finn, this might be your first encounter with sonic - don't waste your time.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Surely, though, you train to do something with the intention of doing that thing?

    You might have the requisite intention of causing terror while you're training, but without a specific target you might not have that intention by causing death.

    Or something like that - like the Solicitor-General said, the law is pretty convoluted.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Jimmy Hayes,

    Off topic slightly, but I've been having fun watching the Herald struggle to stick with a headline for the hikoi.

    First it was: Hikoi arrives at Parliament

    Then: Hikoi descends on Parliament

    Now: Hikoi arrives in the capital

    Any suggestions for next one? Looking at the process they seem to be using, I'd say Hikoi descends on helpless Pakehas is a distinct possibility.

    Since Apr 2007 • 35 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Thats right Finn, how dare anyone ever compare anything that happens in NZ to an event overseas.

    You didn't compare anything or demonstrate any connections or points of similarity, you merely picked an event that already matched your view of the world and used that to draw conclusions about NZ. Again, what in my stupid 9/11 analogy was more fatuous than your comment?

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    I think the rebuttal to that would that there's been a huge amount of trial by media going on already -- a good deal of it of the police, who have been accused of racism, incompetence, "state terror", etc, etc.

    Of course, there's a big difference here: the police aren't facing criminal charges and possible jail time. But if they ever do, I'll happily repeat those sentiments on their behalf. We have a courts, trials, a justice system to avoid the "justice" of the lynchmob. Trial by media undermines that, and takes us in exactly the wrong direction.

    I should also note that as an arm of the government, the police are supposedly accountable to the public. And I don't see any problem with the public debating their institutional role and actions, and seeking to hold them to account politically if they have behaved improperly. Conflating this with a trial by media is to declare police actions unquestionable and the police unaccountable - propositions which should be anathema in a democracy.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Classic from the Dom Post:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10475961&pnum=2

    "We believe we are acting within the law, we also believe we are acting in the public interest."

    I believe they also believed they would sell plenty of copies.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    I'm never happy about people wearing masks on a demo (how do you know who they are) However given the context of police dawn raids nicking activists it is rather more understandable than usual eh?

    That's why some dressed as clowns with full face paint during the Springbok tour protests and more recently outside Te Papa... didn't stop the boot/head interfaces though.

    While it may seem trite to say so, there is a strong and entrenched antagonism between the police and activist groups that's going to have a wider effect on the overall role and position of the police and the level of trust that ties them to their communities. As Phil Wallington pointed out a while back, it's going to undermine "Safer Communities Together."

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    I don't see anything off the wall in assuming that our police would behave in much the same way as the UK police / security forces. There's pretty much no oversight that would stop them engaging in that sort of activity (using major criminals as informers).

    The fact that gang leaders seldom get busted suggests that there might well be some sort of accomodation between them and the cops. Best case, there's a tacit agreement that they keep their activities within certain bounds. Worst case would involve brown paper bags full of banknotes...

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    It seems to me the police could have got a lot of comments of a similar flavour for a lot less trouble in any one of a number of skinhead hangouts in Christchurch.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2217 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    It all seems a bit crowded. Police/AOS/STG (all cops so far?) then SAS.

    The AOS and STG are subunits of the Police, yes. AOS units are formed within particular districts, the STG is a national unit (but as I understand it the personnel are split between Auckland and Wellington).

    Going to Helen was the process followed as per SAS involvement. I think we could loose STG or a domestic focused SAS.

    No, going to Helen was the process for S I S involvement. The Security and Intelligence Service are detailed for anti-terrorism intelligence work, and are required by law to keep the PM and the Leader of the Opposition appraised of their operations. The S A S, or Special Air Service, is the NZ military's elite special forces unit, which has a counter-terror response tasking in addition to covert special operations. Deploying the SAS within NZ requires the permission of the PM (or the next-most-senior Minister), as does any deployment of military units for domestic law enforcement purposes, but they were not used in this operation. The rules for deployment of the military to assist the Police are laid out in s9 of the Defence Act 1990.

    My suspicion is that there is a cross over of staff in STG/SAS due to the shortage of skilled types not in Iraq as contracts already.

    That would be highly irregular, if not outright illegal. They draw from different pools of people - the STG from the cops, the SAS from the military (mostly the Army, but also RNZN and RNZAF) - for a start, not to mention that the STG are cops, and therefore you can't just grab any old soldier, even the very best of them, and put them in a blue uniform. The converse is also true, since no matter how good STG members are they are not trained soldiers.
    It's a nice conspiracy theory, but the reality is that the two groups are not capable of filling each others' roles except in a very narrow, specific area. There's far more to the SAS than just counter-terror, since they also do behind-enemy-lines raids and the like (Bravo Two Zero, for example), and far more to the STG since they are also cops and have roles to play in intelligence gathering, risk assessment, and close protection.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Maureen Jansen,

    This is from Scoop - Minto's group. Y'all have probably seen it and I'm behind the play. I'm playing Devil's Advocate now or summat but there is a point here, eh?

    "It is a despicable police tactic when the material has not even been sighted by those arrested or their lawyers and where the activists themselves will have to wait up to 18 months before having the chance to present their side of the story when the police evidence is tested in court."

    Rotorua • Since Nov 2006 • 16 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    "It is a despicable police tactic when the material has not even been sighted by those arrested or their lawyers and where the activists themselves will have to wait up to 18 months before having the chance to present their side of the story when the police evidence is tested in court."

    Out of interest - what stops the accused from now presenting their side of the story in the same way? I presume their is sub-judice stuff in terms of official release by lawyer...

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Says Minto. I don't know how he knows everything the 17 and their lawyers have sighted. Nor how he knows who the leak was from.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    It seems to me the police could have got a lot of comments of a similar flavour for a lot less trouble in any one of a number of skinhead hangouts in Christchurch.

    Yeah, lot's of people have regurgitated this sentiment but the logic of it still escapes me. Since when did 'they're no worse than the neo-nazi's' become the criteria for legitimacy in our society?

    And if a gang of skinheads WERE chatting amiably about carrying out mass-murder AND stockpiling guns AND training up on how to build napalm bombs and ambush cars then I would freakin' well want the police to keep a very close eye on them and stop them from hurting or killing anyone.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    I did wonder a bit though about why the assumption is that the Police leaked this. It seems like every man and his dog had a copy of this information, why do we automatically assume it came from the Police, when looking at it logically it would be an own-goal from their perspective if they've been found to have leaked it...

    I believe that Campbell and the Dompost definitely referred specifically to hundred-odd page affadavits. There is no way that the activists would have had that in their hands to give to the media.

    Word of mouth can be effective in spreading details of charges from the moment those arrested had a chance to talk to someone who wasn't a cop.

    As for the unlikelihood of an own goal, haven't we just seen a perfect example of a screw up by the police? Don't overestimate them.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    Three of the 16 people arrested during the raids last month were from Tuhoe

    Really! Only three. Is this something new or have we already covered this? I haven't had time to go through the whole thread.

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

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