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Speaker: “Foreign forces”, hope and Hong Kong's Umbrella Revolution

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  • mark taslov, in reply to Seamus Harris,

    I am a fan of self-determination

    In the hopes of a rerail I’m interested to hear more about how you would apply this ideology to the situation Hong Kong Seamus.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Seamus Harris, in reply to mark taslov,

    You might also want to consider that Taiwan's Sunflower protesters (and their various predecessors) may have provided inspiration to the current movement in Hong Kong.

    Seems at least as likely as a U.S. plot to destabilize China by fomenting the dreaded 'splittism'.

    Wonder if US meddling was a factor in the Scottish referendum?

    Auckland • Since May 2008 • 43 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Seamus Harris,

    Wonder if US meddling was a factor in the Scottish referendum?

    I think the US played with a fairly open bat there, given the stakes and UKs membership in the Five Eyes alliance.

    You might also want to consider that Taiwan’s Sunflower protesters (and their various predecessors) may have provided inspiration to the current movement in Hong Kong.

    Seems at least as likely as a U.S. plot to destabilize China by fomenting the dreaded ‘splittism’.

    Yes, these are mutually beneficial

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Seamus Harris, in reply to mark taslov,

    Maybe Beijing could simply phase in actual democracy as promised?

    They can then go ahead and buy the result, in the time honored fashion.

    In a small territory with a homogeneous population, most of whom are obsessed with money, eating and shopping, this plan should be a piece of cake.

    The KMT can be in the background to discretely advise if needed.

    Auckland • Since May 2008 • 43 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Seamus Harris,

    Yes, what makes things awkward right now is that the CCP, like most Governments, has a tendency of never wanting to be seen to cave to pressure. They are totalitarian, but they also have shown a reasonable capacity to move with the times, but there is as you and Chris have discussed an ingrained fear of humiliation.

    Whether they follow through or not, the impact on the day to day life of Hong Kongers will be marginal, at least in comparison to the curtailing of freedoms being carried out in western democracies.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    Anyway Chris, I appreciated the Cui Jian, if it makes any difference…as something of a response here’s BJ’s Flying Nun influenced Car Sick Cars.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to mark taslov,

    Car Sick Cars.

    Nice one. And nicely ambiguous counter to Cui Jian, who's perhaps a bit "in your face".

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Seamus Harris,

    In a small territory with a homogeneous population, most of whom are obsessed with money, eating and shopping

    That's almost the lament I heard 25 years ago from an expat HK adman in Singapore. Singaporeans had only two interests, eating and shopping, 'in that order'. 'Honkies' commonly played Singaporeans in TV commercials, as the creativity-free locals had no concept of acting beyond nodding and smiling.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    nicely ambiguous counter to Cui Jian

    Yeah the contrast reminds me, perhaps abstractly, of arguments correlating materialism with self-consciousness. Sorry for the delay responding, I realised I’d run out of English above, (open bat*) and needed to take a moment.

    One of the most interesting elements of these protests for me is Nickkita’s first pic and the caption stating that teachers are hosting tutorials on the streets. On one hand I’m concerned about the impartiality of what is being taught in the area of social sciences, but on the other hand it strikes me as a pretty damn awesome show of solidarity. .

    *straight bat

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Seamus Harris, in reply to mark taslov,

    In the Sunflower protests in Taiwan (which saw protesters occupy the national legislature for weeks) lecturers from various universities also gave classes in the street in solidarity.

    Auckland • Since May 2008 • 43 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh,

    Here's an interesting development: Chief Exec C.Y. Leung agrees to meet protestors. Comes with not very thinly veiled warning, though.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh,

    Too much Beijing rock, perhaps. I clearly need to pay more attention to Hong Kong music. Here's a relevantly defiant quotation. I'll have to look up this band Wokstarz this afternoon.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Tinakori, in reply to mark taslov,

    "Whether they follow through or not, the impact on the day to day life of Hong Kongers will be marginal, at least in comparison to the curtailing of freedoms being carried out in western democracies."

    Eh?

    Wellington • Since Jul 2013 • 118 posts Report Reply

  • Bodmin,

    Thank you Nikkita for taking me back to when I used to visit Hong Kong on business from the mid sixties .
    Yes, I saw the protests, first standing on a balcony watching the neatly dressed students below, Maoists, and also being able to see the vehicles tucked around the corner out of site packed with riot police in case things turned nasty, later having to wait for a march to pass on my way to an appointment .

    This was still "Suzy Wong" era HK with the Grey slum accommodation staining the hills towards the Gap, Communist inspired protest no doubt but that word was never used in public it was always the Peoples Republic, Mao was the Chairman, I could freely go to the border but could not go across, the water I drank and washed in came from across that border as did the Pork etc , small coasters flying the flag came down the Pearl river and dotted the harbour and refugees floated down to join those already there.
    KaiTak was the airport neon signs were not allowed to flash , If you saw the Philips sign and counted to five stop, 'cos it was all over the locals said, Red Mercedes Benz taxis made in Japan by Nissan were there by the hundreds if not thousands, the Cricket Club played in central, the Star Ferries plied the harbour for 5centsHK with almost no waiting, young Chinese from the Peoples Republic built transistor radios by the million, Double Happy was celebrated, Moon Cakes were given and eaten, the Lantern Festival was a joy to see and business was a joy to be involved in.
    I can understand what the Hong Kong citizens are trying to hang on to.
    Thanks for the memories.

    Auckland • Since May 2014 • 10 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Tinakori,

    “Whether they follow through or not, the impact on the day to day life of Hong Kongers will be marginal, at least in comparison to the curtailing of freedoms being carried out in western democracies.”

    Eh?

    Sorry for the delay I had to go to Hong Kong for the morning, I'm not sure what you weren't clear about but you know usual stuff, a biased media, chances of being arrested on terrorism charges and imprisoned for a month for being too activist, Suppression of terrorism acts, OIA delays, file sharing legislation, Government interference in fraud investigations, search warrants on Investigative Journalists, assaults on protesting MPs by the security detail of visiting Chinese delegates, vote coat tailing, breaches of electoral spending, mass surveillance, arrests on behalf of foreign Governments, as say compared with Hong Kong now, for the past 20 years and into the next decade.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Tinakori, in reply to mark taslov,

    Wow, so that's what its like when you pass through the looking glass.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2013 • 118 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Tinakori,

    No, that's what it's like when your contribution to the discussion is addled cliche.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • jh,

    The Chinese presence in Hong Kong has diluted our local culture.

    It's called diversity and it's extremely good for you?

    Since May 2007 • 103 posts Report Reply

  • jh,

    The weapon of choice (given that a Tienanmen Square is out in the digital age) is to do what they did in Thailand; organise an opposing group (red shirts/ yellow shirts)?

    Since May 2007 • 103 posts Report Reply

  • jh, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Let me answer this: no. The Chinese government doesn’t run New Zealand

    but property /construction sector interests do and on the left diversity crowds out any expression of negative influence on locals, so we have a consensus amongst the political elite that immigration is a good thing regardless.

    , the language (written and spoken) is in no danger of disappearing, retail still serves the needs of residents

    as it does in HK?

    the scale of migration and tourism is in no way comparable. It’s just not a comparison.

    Are you an advocate of open borders Russell Brown?

    In 2036, New Zealand will look very different.
    While there will still be hoards of sheep and a handful of kiwis – Auckland will be bigger, the New Zealand population would have significantly increased, there’ll be a soar in the Asian population and every region in the country will be more multi-cultural.
    That’s according to Professor Paul Spoonley. His work could have a huge impact on you, and how you live in the New Zealand of the future.

    http://www.engine.ac.nz/defining-people/paul-spoonley/

    There is plenty of economic argument that immigration is harmful (Savings Working Group, Treasury, Reserve Bank - Australian Productivity Commission)

    Opposition to immigration is portrayed as racist and the conversation is closed down, yet people are by nature racist (of a sort) and that kin preference has served us well for eons.

    In Beijing some people are forced to live underground.
    Is NZ the answer to Chinese overcrowding?

    Since May 2007 • 103 posts Report Reply

  • Fen Tex,

    As a minor, mostly irrelevant observation, doesn't this...

    Hongkongers are ethnically Chinese. Our nationality is also technically Chinese now, but we feel very strongly that our culture and customs are vastly different from that of the Chinese

    ...make a mistake about the meaning of ethnicity? One's cultures and customs is the subject encompassed by ethnicity.

    I mention it because I suspect the writer is encouraged by the often made conflation of Race (a socially assigned grouping by some of others based on trivial similarities in appearance) with ethnicity (a socially delineated grouping of people by shared customs, heritage and/or ideology, ritual or other accepted common interest).

    It bugs me that officialdom often asks on forms what ethnicity a person is but gives races as the answers they can select among. It is used as a euphemism to attempt to avoid opprobrium for daring to ask after race and corrupts the meaning of ethnicity to my annoyance.

    I suspect Nickkita Lau meant Hongkongers are NOT ethnically Chinese being now a distinctive culture melded from China and Britain's differing influences.

    Christchurch • Since Oct 2014 • 18 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Fen Tex,

    I won't speculate on what Nickkita meant, but on the subject of race/ethnicity/culture, there are those who would argue that Chinese culture is better preserved in Hong Kong than on the Mainland.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to jh,

    In Beijing some people are forced to live underground.

    Not really, no. Well, accomodation in Beijing is insanely expensive. Basement apartments are cheaper than above ground apartments, but people have options. And sure, some have decided it's better to open a manhole cover and drop down to a nice, cosy space beside a central heating pipe - stories of this nature from a variety of post-Soviet and former Eastern bloc countries have been doing the rounds for years - but when this story broke in the Beijing media ummm.... late last year? early this year? the authorities quickly sent cops around to force people above ground again.

    And that about sums up the amount of time I have for the rest of your "argument".

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh,

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh,

    ...and up here in Beijing... Be careful what you get photocopied where?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

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