Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: “Foreign forces”, hope and Hong Kong's Umbrella Revolution

Chris Waugh

Sat, 13 Dec 2014 21:31:40 +1300

...and up here in Beijing... Be careful what you get photocopied where?

Chris Waugh

Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:29:28 +1300

Jamie Kenny in the Nation on the Hong Kong protests.

Chris Waugh

Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:45:00 +1300

In Beijing some people are forced to live underground.

Not really, no. Well, accomodation in Beijing is insanely expensive. Basement apartments are cheaper than above ground apartments, but people have options. And sure, some have decided it's better to open a manhole cover and drop down to a nice, cosy…

Chris Waugh

Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:40:53 +1300

I won't speculate on what Nickkita meant, but on the subject of race/ethnicity/culture, there are those who would argue that Chinese culture is better preserved in Hong Kong than on the Mainland.

Fen Tex

Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:57:33 +1300

As a minor, mostly irrelevant observation, doesn't this...

Hongkongers are ethnically Chinese. Our nationality is also technically Chinese now, but we feel very strongly that our culture and customs are vastly different from that of the Chinese

...make a mistake about the meaning of ethnicity? One's cultures and customs is…

jh

Sun, 19 Oct 2014 12:41:46 +1300

Let me answer this: no. The Chinese government doesn’t run New Zealand
but property /construction sector interests do and on the left diversity crowds out any expression of negative influence on locals, so we have a consensus amongst the political elite that immigration is a good thing regardless.

, the…

jh

Sun, 19 Oct 2014 12:09:59 +1300

The weapon of choice (given that a Tienanmen Square is out in the digital age) is to do what they did in Thailand; organise an opposing group (red shirts/ yellow shirts)?

jh

Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:59:50 +1300

The Chinese presence in Hong Kong has diluted our local culture.

It's called diversity and it's extremely good for you?

mark taslov

Fri, 17 Oct 2014 19:41:51 +1300

No, that's what it's like when your contribution to the discussion is addled cliche.

Tinakori

Fri, 17 Oct 2014 19:03:27 +1300

Wow, so that's what its like when you pass through the looking glass.

mark taslov

Fri, 17 Oct 2014 15:57:45 +1300

“Whether they follow through or not, the impact on the day to day life of Hong Kongers will be marginal, at least in comparison to the curtailing of freedoms being carried out in western democracies.”

Eh?

Sorry for the delay I had to go to Hong Kong for the morning,…

Bodmin

Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:05:01 +1300

Thank you Nikkita for taking me back to when I used to visit Hong Kong on business from the mid sixties .
Yes, I saw the protests, first standing on a balcony watching the neatly dressed students below, Maoists, and also being able to see the vehicles tucked around the…

Tinakori

Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:51:30 +1300

"Whether they follow through or not, the impact on the day to day life of Hong Kongers will be marginal, at least in comparison to the curtailing of freedoms being carried out in western democracies."

Eh?

Chris Waugh

Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:29:08 +1300

Too much Beijing rock, perhaps. I clearly need to pay more attention to Hong Kong music. Here's a relevantly defiant quotation. I'll have to look up this band Wokstarz this afternoon.

Chris Waugh

Fri, 17 Oct 2014 01:43:58 +1300

Here's an interesting development: Chief Exec C.Y. Leung agrees to meet protestors. Comes with not very thinly veiled warning, though.

Seamus Harris

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 23:33:32 +1300

In the Sunflower protests in Taiwan (which saw protesters occupy the national legislature for weeks) lecturers from various universities also gave classes in the street in solidarity.

mark taslov

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 22:59:05 +1300

nicely ambiguous counter to Cui Jian

Yeah the contrast reminds me, perhaps abstractly, of arguments correlating materialism with self-consciousness. Sorry for the delay responding, I realised I’d run out of English above, (open bat*) and needed to take a moment.

One of the most interesting elements of these protests for me…

Joe Wylie

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 22:51:41 +1300

In a small territory with a homogeneous population, most of whom are obsessed with money, eating and shopping

That's almost the lament I heard 25 years ago from an expat HK adman in Singapore. Singaporeans had only two interests, eating and shopping, 'in that order'. 'Honkies' commonly played Singaporeans in…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 21:23:03 +1300

Car Sick Cars.

Nice one. And nicely ambiguous counter to Cui Jian, who's perhaps a bit "in your face".

mark taslov

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 21:12:11 +1300

Anyway Chris, I appreciated the Cui Jian, if it makes any difference…as something of a response here’s BJ’s Flying Nun influenced Car Sick Cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ3x-vhIXEY

mark taslov

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:46:48 +1300

Yes, what makes things awkward right now is that the CCP, like most Governments, has a tendency of never wanting to be seen to cave to pressure. They are totalitarian, but they also have shown a reasonable capacity to move with the times, but there is as you and Chris…

Seamus Harris

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:38:26 +1300

Maybe Beijing could simply phase in actual democracy as promised?

They can then go ahead and buy the result, in the time honored fashion.

In a small territory with a homogeneous population, most of whom are obsessed with money, eating and shopping, this plan should be a piece of cake.…

mark taslov

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:32:29 +1300

Wonder if US meddling was a factor in the Scottish referendum?

I think the US played with a fairly open bat there, given the stakes and UKs membership in the Five Eyes alliance.

You might also want to consider that Taiwan’s Sunflower protesters (and their various predecessors) may have provided…

Seamus Harris

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:27:39 +1300

You might also want to consider that Taiwan's Sunflower protesters (and their various predecessors) may have provided inspiration to the current movement in Hong Kong.

Seems at least as likely as a U.S. plot to destabilize China by fomenting the dreaded 'splittism'.

Wonder if US meddling was a factor in…

mark taslov

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:25:27 +1300

I am a fan of self-determination

In the hopes of a rerail I’m interested to hear more about how you would apply this ideology to the situation Hong Kong Seamus.

Seamus Harris

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:20:54 +1300

Err yes. You're right Chris. The DPP pay me TWD 0.5 per post.

Seamus Harris

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:19:02 +1300

If you only bought up Taiwan because you felt the comparison didn't work due the different situations then stop there.

If that was your sold purpose there was no need to present your 'wise' view a non-KMT government in Taiwan would destabilize things.

Chris Waugh

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:14:27 +1300

but less selective memory would be nice.

Well, that I certainly agree on.

Seamus Harris

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:11:55 +1300

Sent my earlier reply while you were posting yours, so didn't see your last post.

I'm not a fan of the CCP. Simple as that. Nor am I a fan of the KMT. I am a fan of self-determination, and this has advanced in Taiwan (mostly despite the KMT) far…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:09:49 +1300

I just realised I've seen all this before: Classic foreign pan-Green/Tai Du sympathiser tactics. He's entitled to his views, but I'm not going to repeat myself any more, and I'd rather get back to the situation in Hong Kong.

mark taslov

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:04:01 +1300

We’re stuck in a loop. Seamus as I mentioned above it was Toi Iti who made a fleeting Taiwan comparison.

Chris Waugh

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 19:45:58 +1300

Well, then stop guessing.

I only mentioned Taiwan because it was raised as a comparison with Hong Kong in that Media Take segment and I object to that because the comparison just does not work, the situations in the two territories are just too different.

Seamus Harris

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 19:35:09 +1300

I'd say my comment was pretty balanced and informed. I'm not so sure about yours. My guess is that you've never taken the time to learn anything very much about either Taiwan or Hong Kong.

I just watched the TV segment now. Contrary to what the presenter said, "one country,…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 19:14:33 +1300

To clarify:

I'm certainly not going to apologise for the CCP or its multitude of wrongs. Hence the link to the Cui Jian MV upthread (which I hope works for those outside the Great Firewall).

You're comment seems to me to be all Big Bad Bully in Beijing vs. Gook…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 17:57:14 +1300

Well, that's certainly how your comment read to me. Was I wrong?

mark taslov

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 17:13:05 +1300

And not to discredit the motivations of most of the protesters themselves,but to strongly question some of the impetus.

Allegations of Jimmy Lai’s top aide; ex-United States Naval Investigative Service employee Mark Simon, whose father served 35 years in the CIA, helping to arrange a meeting between Lai and Sarah…

Seamus Harris

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 15:50:06 +1300

"Anti communist knee-jerk". . . wow.

mark taslov

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 15:10:46 +1300

willing to risk their lives to fight for something noble.

The question for me is, assuming Beijing – against all reasonable expectations – were to back down, and grant ‘democracy’, then what changes might this bring about? The CCP’s public nominations will become private, you will see ‘independent’ candidates emerge…

Nickkita Lau

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 09:49:15 +1300

This message may be a little simplistic to a very complicated situation. I encourage you all to read more about what's happening in HK right now and what our police has done over the past 2-3 days from different sources. If you have the means, go to one of our…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 00:42:22 +1300

Can I put in an early submission for the Friday music thread? It's a Beijinger singing in Mandarin, but this may not be entirely irrelevant.

Sue

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 00:14:02 +1300

thank you so much for this post Nickkita.
and for your personal take on it all.

Like any protest in china i worry, for how it will end. History tells us violently and at the governments hands. I hope that in our word of cellphones and social media that won;t…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 16 Oct 2014 00:09:41 +1300

What Mark said about context. I was specifically rejecting the Taiwan comparison because it does not work. By "one country, two systems" being a default that came about almost by historic accident, I mean precisely the current non-arrangement where neither side agrees on how to proceed, except that the status…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 23:34:16 +1300

It's been a few years since I spent a lot of time in Taiwan but the impression I got was that it really seems to be a weird series of contrasts – the greens want to be what they already are, a country – that's easy to understand..

The blues,…

mark taslov

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 22:51:01 +1300

Just to contextualise Seamus, Chris seemed to be specifically referring to Toi’s question to Nickita on Media Take (12:15):

"Do you buy into the the saying “one country two systems”, or would you like, like Taiwan; ’one country one system’?”

Seamus Harris

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 22:25:35 +1300

"One country, two systems" should not be called "a default that came about almost by historical accident for Taiwan".

"One country, two systems" is peddled only by Beijing and its allies. No major political party in Taiwan has endorsed it.

The KMT (i.e. the Blues) might support the "One China…

mark taslov

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 21:08:48 +1300

Yes it doesn’t work at all given the history, I’d initially glossed over that as a dig at Beijing’s cross strait propaganda but looking back it’s clearly a veiled attempt to gauge Nickkita’s thoughts on secession, Scotland’s recent vote would have been more appropriate.

Personally I’m tired of hearing China…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 20:46:48 +1300

I took the house price thing as a not entirely serious throwaway. I just thought it was silly. But the Taiwan comparison came across as a serious question, and I just don't see how that works. The two territories' histories are just too different. For starters, "one country, two systems"…

mark taslov

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 20:31:42 +1300

And house prices? Somebody send Toi to Beijing, we’ll show him house prices.

I hear you and I can also appreciate Toi's cynicism, it is worth noting that, however marginal, there has been some impact, even in Beijing.

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 20:21:51 +1300

On Media Take Toi

Ah, thanks, I didn't realise Nickkita was on Media Take, too.

I enjoyed Toi's intro, but I found the Taiwan comparison very, very weak. The history is entirely different. And house prices? Somebody send Toi to Beijing, we'll show him house prices.

mark taslov

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 20:19:17 +1300

and of course 7 years ago today. The response of our Prime Minister:

On Monday Helen Clark stated that the people arrested on firearms charges have been using firearms, testing napalm bombs, and constructing Molotov cocktails– this before any evidence has been presented to court.

mark taslov

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 19:39:29 +1300

We had an uncorrupted government
On Media Take Toi mentioned that you’ve only been in New Zealand five months. If you’re not already aware of this story, in its own way it may assist in informing your impressions of our ‘democracy’ and ‘CEO’:

Greens say Norman assaulted by Chinese security…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 16:17:19 +1300

I think the Anglosphere has gotten rather complacent

Probably even to the point of the fiddling-while-Rome-burns sort of complacent.

Nickkita Lau

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 16:11:32 +1300

The video Russell post has gone viral on HK social media. What the police did and/ didn't do over the past 2 weeks have broken the hearts of many HKers who grew up believing the HK Police were to be trusted. Because of the public outcry, the police has issued…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:37:23 +1300

In HK they still know how to protest.

I think the Anglosphere has gotten rather complacent, while many in HK are seeing bloody good reasons to not relax.

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:30:17 +1300

Thank you, Nickkita.

I’m not convinced that the Communist Party was the sole aggressor in the 1960s riots, nor that the KMT was innocent of all involvement. But that’s by-the-by. Photos have been popping up online of protestors (not necessarily Occupy Central, some of these have been around for a…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:24:20 +1300

In HK they still know how to protest. Whereas in many of the advanced Anglosphere economies, it seems to have become a mild case of boiled frog-ism: "So what if people are throwing molotovs and there are soldiers marching in the streets? Nothing else matters as long as my house…

Russell Brown

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:01:40 +1300

Police officers beating a handcuffed protester, later idenitified as Civic Party member Ken Tsang Kin-chiu. Story here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvsrEF3gp-U

Nickkita Lau

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:54:30 +1300

I actually thought of writing about why we are protesting, what we stand for, how we are protesting, why we are so damn nice and peaceful, and even the conspiracy theories and how the HK/Chinese government's handling of this is a reflection of the power struggle of the Communist Party,…

Russell Brown

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:43:36 +1300

Thanks for joining the discussion Nickkita.

Nickkita Lau

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:22:39 +1300

Thank you very much for the interests. The reason I illustrated all the discontent in Hong Kong is to show why it is important for us to have democracy so that we can finally take control of our destiny and make policies that serve HKers. Yes, I understand my depiction…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:14:34 +1300

Craig I suspect that people here who live on the mainland or visit a lot probably are thinking hard about whether to touch those lightning rods .... it's probably why we're talking about character sets

Paul Campbell

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:12:09 +1300

I'm working on reading vocab (I need to read component data sheets) – sitting around 2000 chars at the moment – my brain seems to do reading vocab so much better that verbal ..... not being embedded in the language makes it lot harder, I'll have a week at xmas,…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 14:09:29 +1300

I should've known....

I am discussing Nickkita's post. A certain nostalgia for the colonial era seems to have crept in to these anti-Mainland things, even with people flying colonial era flags at some protests.

I understand the reaction against Central government interference in HK affairs, given that HK is still…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:46:45 +1300

(and I'm slightly biased since I'm learning simplified)

Me too. I don't know how far through your studies you are, but my experience is that once you've got your reading up to a certain level, Traditional becomes a lot less daunting. Context and an understanding of how the characters "work"…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:44:07 +1300

Why idealise the colonial era? If colonial Hong Kong was so perfectly sweet and innocent, why was the ICAC set up? Care to discuss the political troubles of the ’60s?

Well, yeah – let's discuss. But I'm sorry, but you're going to dismiss Nickkita's whole post because she isn't delivering…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 12:45:42 +1300

Chris: yeah, as I understand it most of the changes that were attributed to Mao had been being proposed for decades before, he just had the means to push them through.

I must admit I was guessing at how mainland people would react to traditional script, as I mentioned I’ve…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 11:55:38 +1300

there were no mysterious masked thugs attacking protesters.

Yeah, that bit's creepy. Par for the course in smalltown Mainland, though. And Zhongnanhai has never been known for its PR savvy.

Russell Brown

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 11:51:33 +1300

The Chinese government isnt tear gassing anyone. The Hong Kong SAR has its own police force.

Yes, sorry, that was sloppy of me.

If you remember the Occupy Auckland protest was broken up by the police. Some would say, its what they do.

The Auckland occupiers were evicted after four…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 11:45:24 +1300

while those from the mainland may find what they see in Hong Kong as “old-fashioned” a thing of their grandparents –

More "sophisticated", I think.

Chris Waugh

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 11:43:35 +1300

though a closer (if less extreme) parallel as far as the writing systems go might be if NZ were to adopt American spellings as standard

Well, yes. As far as the writing goes, we're not talking about a different language or script, just a different orthography. And although there are…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 11:37:30 +1300

There is a gulf there – a Taiwanese friend talked about the disorientation when first faced with simplified Chinese (the mainland post-Mao writing system brought in to increase literacy), I'm sure those who've grown up in Hong Kong feel the same, while those from the mainland may find what they…

linger

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 10:42:36 +1300

forms of manadrinknock-off drugs, compared to the “original brand” Cantonese writing system. (The spoken language varieties are much less similar.)
The issue may not be so much with the increased use of Mandarin, as with the devalued status of Cantonese as a result (i.e., no longer an unchallenged standard language).…

Steve Curtis

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 10:30:22 +1300

The Chinese government doesn’t run New Zealand let alone tear-gas Aucklanders in the street,

The Chinese government isnt tear gassing anyone. The Hong Kong SAR has its own police force. If you remember the Occupy Auckland protest was broken up by the police. Some would say, its what they do.…

Russell Brown

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 10:02:17 +1300

You say that because of the influx of mainlanders and thus the dilution of the Hong Konger identity that many Hong Kongers are moving overseas. Surely that’s a little bit hypocritical: aren’t Hong Kongers moving, to say, Auckalnd, the same as mainlanders moving to Hong Kong?

Let me answer this:…

Joshua Grainger

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:53:25 +1300

You say that because of the influx of mainlanders and thus the dilution of the Hong Konger identity that many Hong Kongers are moving overseas. Surely that's a little bit hypocritical: aren't Hong Kongers moving, to say, Auckalnd, the same as mainlanders moving to Hong Kong? The concern about the…

Public Address

Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:53:25 +1300

Discussion from blog post.