OnPoint: Dear Labour Caucus
954 Responses
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Cunliffe, a [wealthy] former business analyst
I wish you'd posted that 31 pages ago. It would have saved me thinking about who should be Labour leader. A BA running the country? Come on?
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BenWilson, in reply to
You happened to pick that moment when the subject was also a very topical matter.
Yes, that's usually the time I try to pick.
I find you to be one of the bravest posters here - do you still self-censor?
Yes, a lot. I'm curious what you think is brave about my writing? Is it brave because I take personal risks that are just foolish on the internet, or because I fight quite hard against peer pressure and write about controversial things, risking to seem a fool in this forum? Or something else?
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Isaac Freeman, in reply to
Is it brave because I take personal risks that are just foolish on the internet, or because I fight quite hard against peer pressure and write about controversial things, risking to seem a fool in this forum? Or something else?
Mostly it's because of that one time you rode a motorcycle over a swimming pool full of electric eels to save a school of orphans from Godzilla. Don't think we've forgotten.
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BenWilson, in reply to
You're confusing me with my brother.
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I want the permalink to this comment etched on my tombstone. Ta.
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BenWilson, in reply to
A BA running the country? Come on?
Indeed. Why go by halves? We've got M&A guys instead.
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Some thoughts:
First up, a big wave to rjal. I hope you might comment again from time to time... It doesn't seem right to welcome you to the community, because it seems you have been here for a long time.
On Self-censoring: I do it all the time here. There's a heap of stuff I won't say, or opinions I won't venture, because I feel that they simply won't be heard. A bit like Ben's opinion re the anti-smacking legislation. I *do* think that PAS is sometimes not all that good with respect to listening to dissent. This thread has been pretty uncomfortable for anyone who doesn't buy into the Anyone But Cunliffe meme. Much like back in the day PAS was pretty uncomfortable for people (including me) who didn't buy into the Obama=Good/Clinton=Bad meme. Sooner or later you learn to just shut up.
On "Don't be a dick about it". I like your reframing of it, Russell, as "show good grace to each other". The latter emphasises reciprocity, but the former doesn't. The former is one group of people telling another group of people how to behave, and it comes from a position of power.
On the current argument: I've had some pretty intense disagreements with Giovanni, and there's one issue in particular where I feel as though we are just talking past each other. I've been able to move on and say, "Okay, we disagree on this one" because it has never been attended by ad hominem/feminam comments. I felt that there was a bit of needless personal stuff coming into this conversation, which didn't help.
On class in New Zealand: All been said, really, but by way of summation: it isn't defined by money, 'though money is a contributor. It isn't defined by family status, 'though family status is a contributor. It isn't defined by education, 'though education is a contributor. It intersects with culture and race: from the outside I can see that there are class hierachies within Maori groups, but I don't understand them, nor how they work, nor how power is transmuted within them. I suspect that thinking about the power to effect change, and the power to withstand government intervention, and the power to access government services (very broadly understood), might be a more useful way to analyse class structure in New Zealand, but I don't know, because it's not an area I've given much thought to, nor am I trained in that area. Maybe one of the difficulties in this discussion has been because the language of class, and Left and Right, doesn't serve us all that well. Actually, this turns out not to be a summation at all...
I'm going to put another comment up in a moment that is back on topic, but I think that there is something that people here might turn their minds to over the next few weeks, and that is the extent to which PAS is a bit of a closed shop at times, and if you don't hold the same views as the main grouping here, then it can be difficult.
And yes, this comment has been self-censored. There's a lot I'm not saying, because it won't progress things at all, and it will only hurt people. However, one thing I must not self-censor is this: I do think that a fair amount of the opprobrium that was directed at Gio was unfair.
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Back on topic: Describing David Cunliffe as a 'business analyst' is like describing Grant Robertson as a 'student politician'. Robertson has put together an effective career as a student politician, a diplomat, a political aide - all very useful skills as a politician and hopefully one day, a minister. David Cunliffe has put together a very useful career as a lawyer (I think), a diplomat, a business analyst, and a minister - all very useful skills for a politician. Focusing on just one aspect of either man's career does not do them justice, at all.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
David Cunliffe has put together a very useful career as a lawyer (I think), a diplomat, a business analyst, and a minister – all very useful skills for a politician. Focusing on just one aspect of either man’s career does not do them justice, at all.
Oh god ... I only used it in an example of how someone could be characterised in a particular way based on a limited number of data pieces. I did make it clear that wasn't what I thought.
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Deborah, in reply to
I'm sorry. I misread your comment.
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The alternative theory is that Labour aren’t really all that Left
Labour's leftness seems to be one of those working assumptions. It's easy to find evidence that they are. Yet it's also easy to find evidence against, large gaps in which there is little to distinguish either way, and lethargy when it comes to implementing real or rhetorical stated goals. In the last decade I've been challenged quite vocally when trying to untangle this mess. Only in the last year have such criticisms been received without challenge by Labour insiders, and it is this realisation that many hope will guide their reformation from within. However, the Obama-like emptiness of the Labour leadership selection is the most recent iteration of a process that spans at least the last decade (and previous ones, but I'm happy to leave those to history for present purposes).
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Heather Gaye, in reply to
I suspect that thinking about the power to effect change, and the power to withstand government intervention, and the power to access government services (very broadly understood), might be a more useful way to analyse class structure in New Zealand
OH PLEASE can someone pick this up and run with it. Of the whole conversation I’ve read, this one sentence jumped out as the most illuminating/interesting observation so far. Worth unpacking further.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
On “Don’t be a dick about it”. I like your reframing of it, Russell, as “show good grace to each other”. The latter emphasises reciprocity, but the former doesn’t. The former is one group of people telling another group of people how to behave, and it comes from a position of power.
The full phrase is "don't be a dick" and I always thought it meant what I said above. Gio's been holding forth recently (here and in other venues) about what a ghastly concept it is and I've tried to take it on the chin. But I honestly think it works pretty well. The evidence being the large and active community of people who, usually pretty successfully, debate here. I'm not aware of any other local site that operates as well.
Example: Emma's Slutwalk thread. That topic turned into a clusterfuck pretty much everywhere else, but it didn't here -- in part because Emma and I took turns hovering over it as moderators. I had to utter the odd admonition, which didn't always go down well, but I had an idea of what we needed to avoid.
I’m going to put another comment up in a moment that is back on topic, but I think that there is something that people here might turn their minds to over the next few weeks, and that is the extent to which PAS is a bit of a closed shop at times, and if you don’t hold the same views as the main grouping here, then it can be difficult.
Feel free to let me know what to do about that. I do try and weigh in on behalf of someone who's being pilloried (to some extent I thought that was the case with Damian, who I could see was upset), but there's always the risk there of others thinking that person is getting special favours (that's a fairly common accusation too).
I've been briskly informed in this thread about what's incumbent on me -- not that I have any idea how I might go about much of it. I've had personal emails from people taking completely different views of what's gone down here. (including Damian, who says he won't be participating in any further in discussions here and will not open comments on any further blog posts he makes). I've lain awake questioning my own judgement, and feeling pissed off. And I'm just really, really tired.
So, everyone, I would regard it as a Really Fucking Big Christmas Favour if you could all just show good grace to each other.
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merc, in reply to
And yes, this comment has been self-censored. There's a lot I'm not saying, because it won't progress things at all, and it will only hurt people. However, one thing I must not self-censor is this: I do think that a fair amount of the opprobrium that was directed at Gio was unfair.
I self censor as well, alot, because of reasons, though as I am learning. Gio copped quite a bit of unfair flak, and what a strength of character that he hung in there. I love Gio's views (and others here), they expand my world.
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merc, in reply to
Definitely!
Oh and on the don't be a dick thing, my test, try saying that down at the pub at G.I.
bar patron, whatthefukareya?
merc; don't be a dick
It is an active thing. Whereas - excuse me and a smile - works wonders because it's a passive thing. As for the word grace, that is far too holy for me ;-) -
giovanni tiso, in reply to
Gio's been holding forth recently (here and in other venues) about what a ghastly concept it is and I've tried to take it on the chin.
Respectfully, you may possibly have formed a somewhat exaggerated impression of the extent in which the things I say or write outside of here are about you or Public Address. But feel free to inform Damian that he can come out from under the blankets, I'm not taking part in further threads on PAS. As soon as people stop calling me out I'll stop popping up in this one, promise.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
But feel free to inform Damian that he can come out from under the blankets,
Could you please not phrase it as yet another dig at him? Please?
I’m not taking part in further threads on PAS. As soon as people stop calling me out I’ll stop popping up in this one, promise.
I can only respectfully ask you to reconsider.
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merc, in reply to
I can say with absolute hand on my heart that I have chatted with Gio outside this forum, and at all times he has been a gentle, kind and totally dignified person.
I always find opprobrium difficult, Gio has never displayed it to me in any context. -
giovanni tiso, in reply to
I'm not being grumpy - although I can't say I enjoyed the treatment I got by Damian and Emma on this thread, and I really don't revel in the stuff as much as people might think that I do - but I have been an unproductive member of the community for at least the last year. I always lead the discussion in a variation of the same dead end, and can't stop it from happening again the following time. It's... unfortunate.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I’m not being grumpy – although I can’t say I enjoyed the treatment I got by Damian and Emma on this thread,
No, that’s understandable, and I’m sincerely sorry about that. But you describing Damian as hiding “under the blankets” (like a big sook or something?) was just the last thing I needed to see after explaining I was feeling tired and stressed and asking everyone to show good grace. C’mon.
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Please, Russell, could you edit that epithet, and my comment, out?
As you wish. It did seem to be the undertone, but I’ve chosen a synonym as a matter of grace.
Edited by Deborah to add:
Oops. Russell and I have both been in editing my comment. To be clear, the quote up there is my words, and the plain text words are Russell’s. Russell was adjusting some wording in the comment at my request.Thanks, Russell.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
feeling pissed off. And I’m just really, really tired.
I thought that was the cruxt of a lot of this. People are worn out and tired .They all need a break. Tempers fray. Some will go off on holiday, open pressies, eat fine cuisine and enjoy there time out. If with kids, activities will continue for 7 ish weeks.they will return to work and school refreshed. Others will finish their job for 3 weeks. Spend Xmas pay on just that and run out of monies before they go back to work. Their kids will sit at home for 4 more weeks looking after the younger ones. Their depressing cycle will continue for as long as they can keep their job. Their focus will be on that. Just that.
We have bigger divisions in society than I have seen before. -
Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
As for the word grace, that is far too holy for me ;-)
+1
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I thought that was the cruxt of a lot of this. People are worn out and tired .They all need a break. Tempers fray.
Yeah, I think so. I'm really looking forward to some quiet time.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Thanks, Russell.
It's nice to see those words.
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