Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Dear Labour Caucus

mark taslov

Sun, 26 Feb 2017 15:02:57 +1300

On a recent post, I got a rather sharp (but civil) rap over the knuckles for carelessly using “tranny” in a way that was read as a slur on transgendered folks.

Just for the record, I never read it as a slur, you’d used it before, it always felt like…

Kyle Matthews

Sun, 25 Dec 2011 23:44:25 +1300

Not so long ago, Roger Douglas was left, now he's considered right. Richard Nixon was right, although he'd be considered left today. Libertarians are far right, whereas anarchists are far left. Stalin's Communist Party was far left, but Hitler's National Socialist Party was far right.

That's not a failure of…

Lucy Stewart

Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:29:19 +1300

iPads don’t do Flash, from memory. I don’t use one myself, but that’s what I remember from the launch.

Indeed, they're notorious for it.

nzlemming

Sat, 24 Dec 2011 09:57:45 +1300

One of the difficultys in being middle classed, is not figuring out why the iPad won’t show the embedded YouTube files on public address system,

iPads don't do Flash, from memory. I don't use one myself, but that's what I remember from the launch.

wild silverbeat
Well, there's your problem…

Sacha

Sat, 24 Dec 2011 09:45:07 +1300

and though I can't see a preview of the embed this time, it plays just fine when I click the "From Youtube" text link below that. #sigh

Kyle Matthews

Sat, 24 Dec 2011 09:18:20 +1300

Yeah, 1 and 4 sorry.

Sacha

Sat, 24 Dec 2011 09:03:31 +1300

feature=player_embedded&

it doesn't like that bit in the middle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFEPqnZVOdk#!

Sacha

Sat, 24 Dec 2011 09:02:15 +1300

I hitchhiked from Papakura to Taupo as a passenger with Eric Thompson

classic

George Darroch

Sat, 24 Dec 2011 00:03:12 +1300

In Labour, it’s more leadership based and that person certainly has a lot of control over the direction of the party. So I can see why they didn’t want to mire themselves down in three months of “what’s our new direction” focus groups and caucuses,

I hear interesting and…

George Darroch

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 23:56:12 +1300

“motoring columnist” – partisan much?

I hitchhiked from Papakura to Taupo as a passenger with Eric Thompson a year or two ago. We talked mostly about motor racing, and design. Nice guy, but it was mostly me listening to his strong opinions about how the world worked. I…

Steve Parks

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 23:44:21 +1300

Greens, Mana, labour, NZ First and Maori Party? It’s just not political reality in this decade. Numbers 1 & 3 are going to struggle to work together, and 2 & 5 ain’t going to work together this term at least.

One & three? Greens and Labour would struggle to work together? Or did…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 21:49:36 +1300

Hone’s address in reply. Sounds almost like a leftist!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cFEPqnZVOdk#!
Not sure why it doesn't embed :(

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 20:18:57 +1300

Damn pre-Xmas rush keeping me off PAS for two weeks. Catching up:

it worked for Obama, the first Northern president since Kennedy

I'm not sure we could count Reagan and Nixon – both from California, as Southern, in terms of the political divide, Presidents.

Not that odd that the Herald…

Sacha

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:58:19 +1300

Strange. By the way, I recommend copying the "Embed" url instead so people can choose to download or stream.

3410

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:52:47 +1300

As does my Firefox. That's a straight copy and past below, but the http:// isn't in the address bar I copied from.

Yeah, I just tried that with the trimURL turned on again, and same result as you with web pages in general, but http:// not auto-copied across with RNZ's…

Sacha

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:35:45 +1300

The conversation isn't going to change all by itself

verily

Steve Parks

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:26:56 +1300

Oh interesting. Chrome doesn’t show the protocol string either, but when you copy+paste from the title bar, it magically appears.

As does my Firefox. That's a straight copy and past below, but the http:// isn't in the address bar I copied from.

http://publicaddress.net/system/topic/3325/?i=925#replies

Rob Stowell

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:34:36 +1300

These things are thinkable, but not sayable in the political conversation. Yet.
Norman appears to be saying them... but the Labour leadership won't/can't/don't?
Bottom line: if they don't have the guts to take on the media, why should we believe they have the conviction to do anything? The conversation isn't…

HenryB

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:22:04 +1300

Re-reading Keith's post:
Let’s face it, if Cunliffe didn’t offer his supporters portfolios and positions, there wouldn’t even be a contest.
This is what I don't get. There IS no contest: from the point of view of somebody outside the beltway Cunliffe is a far better communicator of Labour's message…

Stephen Judd

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:25:41 +1300

But somehow neo-lib orthodoxy rules, and these things are hardly thinkable, not able to enter the political conversation.

My sense is that while the Labour caucus still harbours people for whom these things are thinkable, they are terrified of the caning they expect they would get in the media. Almost…

James Butler

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:23:23 +1300

Forgot that I updated the stupid Firefox, which now doesn’t show full address. :)

Oh interesting. Chrome doesn't show the protocol string either, but when you copy+paste from the title bar, it magically appears.

3410

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:09:13 +1300

no http in front of them – need the full address to auto-convert

Forgot that I updated the stupid Firefox, which now doesn't show full address. :)

(How to fix it).

The point of my above post, for those who couldn't be bothered unpacking my hopeless linking was that Shearer's…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:54:25 +1300

Yeah, I’m in the same camp. For all the farandango of the public process, Shearer’s selection seemed like back-room business. Against all the evidence we could see, the weaker candidate was chosen.
I think that’s why this thread has been, at times, rather fraught. Keith’s post was full of innuendo…

Lucy Stewart

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:53:18 +1300

And we haven’t yet got to snail-mail robocalling to dead coal miners.

To be fair the explanation given at the end of the article is not terrible, but it does boggle the mind a little that it hadn't occurred to the responsible office that not everybody elected to councils would…

Sacha

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:22:21 +1300

links didn't work as links).

no http in front of them – need the full address to auto-convert

Kumara Republic

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:08:02 +1300

And we haven't yet got to snail-mail robocalling to dead coal miners.

Rich Lock

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:54:58 +1300

Having made it about 25% of the way through a book of Jeremy Clarkson's newspaper columns

Did you lose a bet?

Steve Barnes

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:48:24 +1300

Check out Key’s RNZ Christmas message:

I'd rather not, thank you.
"I'm going to steal your stuff, sell it and then treat you like shit" is hardly a Christmas message.
Or is he lying again?.

HenryB

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:31:18 +1300

vastly underwhelmed by Shearer’s communication ability so far.

Couldn't agree more. He has always struck me as a decent person but he just does not have any talent for communicating – and I am not even sure he has all that much to communicate. As you say, one would think…

3410

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:21:02 +1300

Must say, I've been – at every opportunity – vastly underwhelmed by Shearer's communication ability so far.

Check out Key's RNZ Christmas message:

podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20111223-0729-christmas_message_from_john_key-048.mp3|

Now compare Shearer's RNZ Christmas message:

podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20111223-0730-christmas_message_from_david_shearer-048.mp3

WTF, man?

(Note: links didn't work as links).

Paul Williams

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:38:57 +1300

Rob, Labour's not got a fully developed alternative to National, yet. I understand that Shearer and co. see the holiday as a time to seriously sound out public priorities. I don't think that'll mean a complete reorientation from their pre-election approach though.

My personal view is that redistribution must be…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:16:36 +1300

stupidity like his all sounds the same after a while
Having made it about 25% of the way through a book of Jeremy Clarkson's newspaper columns I have to agree. If that prick (for such he indisputably is) communicated something of the fun he supposedly experiences from playing with the…

Sacha

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:41:30 +1300

stupidity like his all sounds the same after a while

Russell Brown

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:43:10 +1300

ETA: I thought I had read all that a while ago. Indeed, the column was published 22 November.

Whoops!

Martin Lindberg

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:23:22 +1300

the New Zealand Herald's insane motoring columnist, Eric Thompson.

I am convinced that he's some kind of agent provocateur, placed there as a mole on behalf of the god-less green movement.

ETA: I thought I had read all that a while ago. Indeed, the column was published 22 November.

Lucy Stewart

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:22:48 +1300

I read the Green Party Transport manifesto and it's entirely possible to see why only three people ticked the "like" box. If only three people like what the Greens are proposing it must be a load of tosh. Public transport is not efficient and never has been.

It's like all…

Stewart

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:04:58 +1300

"motoring columnist" – partisan much?

Russell Brown

Fri, 23 Dec 2011 07:57:41 +1300

Auckland's transport policy will now be set by the New Zealand Herald's insane motoring columnist, Eric Thompson.

His column yesterday is a towering work of intellectual achievement:

It concludes thus:

It has been reported that the Greens want a compact central city built on efficient transport, and cited Auckland Transport's estimate…

nzlemming

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:50:26 +1300

I hope this shows people it's not actually the public servants that make all the crappy decisions.

Kumara Republic

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:15:43 +1300

And surprise, surprise, Prostetnic Vogon Joyce pulled the middle finger at not 1, but three Govt agencies when they said Auckland should be allowed to set its own transport policy. Make it four if Treasury is included.

Steve Parks

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:31:11 +1300

I rarely agree with Raymond, so I’ll take the opportunity to say I agree with this:

Russell, a big thanks for this site and your pleasant moderation of it
Like others here I have over-stepped good manners on occassion while in debate so I really appreciate what you do and…

Steve Parks

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:27:47 +1300

and I wanted to acknowledge that I found Steve's comment really helpful — a point I'd neglected in my first comment.

Thanks, and welcome to commentating on PAS.

Kumara Republic

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:45:07 +1300

To me it comes across as moronic and try-hard rather than offensive, in a "there's a bomb in my luggage" kind of way.

merc

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:50:09 +1300

"And I say to myself, it's not hard to see why they chose someone who's spent half his life in war-torn places like Somalia and Bosnia, because that's what the Labour Party's like now."
Classy.

Sofie Bribiesca

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 15:33:28 +1300

If you haven’t seen it, I urge you to try sit through it because I actually gave up 10 minutes in. It was embarrassing. There was nothing but spiteful behaviour worthy only of a school yard bully. And he got on a roll. Egged on by his idiot caucus, he…

Raymond A Francis

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:44:00 +1300

Russell, a big thanks for this site and your pleasant moderation of it
Like others here I have over-stepped good manners on occassion while in debate so I really appreciate what you do and some of the pressures on you while you do do it

I hope you take time…

Raymond A Francis

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:37:08 +1300

Good on the Greens for their slightly more dignified approach to Parliment, although I do wonder if it will be maintained now they have extra numbers, hope so

Regarding the Prime Minister, I think it depends on your shade of glasses on how his comments are regarded, I certainly do…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:16:14 +1300

is for their jobs this term to be an utter fucking nightmare.
+1.
But one we get to wake up from, please :)

Rob Stowell

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:13:43 +1300

Norman did sound good. A very clear contrast to National.
an urgent need to reduce poverty, retain assets and create meaningful work
Maybe- but how? Shearer's answer isn't so impressive. Something borrowed: 'smart, green' and something blue: 'growing the pie' with innovative new businesses.
I agree with a point Ben…

Heather Gaye

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:39:28 +1300

When all others had shown dignity and decorum johnkey came across like a 12 year old, making fun of others to improve his own standing.

This is something that's rankled a *lot* recently – JK's habit of smarmy offhand rebuffs. I spat when I heard his comment about putting Shearer…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:35:44 +1300

I caught a small portion of Key’s response to Shearer’s speech, it was a tirade about the Labour party’s internal workings, a very sad indication of his level of debate – he seems to think he has a mandate to blither on pointlessly rather than to prove why he should…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 12:59:43 +1300

“User pays” would be worth review,

Indeed, in fact it is more like "user pays twice" we pay for the people that work out how much to charge for the service we pay taxes for.
It has led to the ridiculous situation of the police having to account for the…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 12:52:48 +1300

How do we disabuse John Key and co of the notion that Parliament is a forum for really bad stand up comedians –

+1
Personally I cringed. When all others had shown dignity and decorum johnkey came across like a 12 year old, making fun of others to improve his…

Russell Brown

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:13:06 +1300

Thanks. Glad you're sticking around as a commenter — that's one good thing to come out of this trainwreck.

Apologies to everyone, Gio included, for the way it has all played out.

The thread seems to have regained a purpose, so I won't close it.

And yeah, I really enjoyed…

Sacha

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 09:20:25 +1300

maintain a dignified silence

and the Greens showed last term that good behaviour in the House is not punished by voters.

Paul Williams

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 09:12:01 +1300

How is Shearer’s vision for NZ ‘left’?
We have growing and shameful inequality in NZ. I don’t think there’s any way to halt it that doesn’t involve turning away from ‘the markets’ for some straightforward old-fashioned wealth redistribution.
Sharing it round- there’s an idea!

Rob, I read this speech as…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 08:37:31 +1300

If Shearer can sit on Mallard and other interjectors hard enough to get Labour to maintain a dignified silence in the face of such juvenile ad homs...
Let's all write them and ask them to...

JLM

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 08:14:57 +1300

If Shearer can sit on Mallard and other interjectors hard enough to get Labour to maintain a dignified silence in the face of such juvenile ad homs (hard call, I know) they’ll both show Key up, and improve parliamentary behaviour astronomically.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:48:20 +1300

The Bash Street kids return...
addresses in reply
How do we disabuse John Key and co of the notion that Parliament is a forum for really bad stand up comedians – I caught a small portion of Key's response to Shearer's speech, it was a tirade about the Labour party's…

Cecelia

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:37:23 +1300

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1112/S00167/russel-normans-address-in-reply-speech.htm

Your link went to the Jakarta Times or something so I've included the above. A great speech, a better speech. Long. Got a bit dazed in the economic section. Can we listen to these speeches on line?

Interesting that he linked to Michael Joseph Savage – it's almost as…

George Darroch

Thu, 22 Dec 2011 00:35:46 +1300

Since we're posting addresses in reply... Russel Norman's excellent speech, invoking (of all things) Jesus, at length.

Rob Stowell

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:29:18 +1300

Shane Jones.... What was that 'fresh' front bench again? :)

Cecelia

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:25:27 +1300

Funnily enough I've just watched Inside NZ, Inside Child Poverty on TV on Demand. It hit me hard.

Shearer is placing a lot of emphasis on the issue of poverty.

And in advocating clean, green and clever jobs he is distancing himself from Shane Jones' pro-mining stance!

rjal

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:07:36 +1300

Oops, sorry Russell. I hadn't intended that to be interpreted as being directed at anyone in particular. I just thought a semi-humorous tale of my big comprehension fail might take a little heat out of the discussion at hand, that and I wanted to acknowledge that I found Steve's comment…

Islander

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:47:33 +1300

for some straightforward old-fashioned wealth redistribution.
Sharing it round- there’s an idea!

O please tell me more – because, as far as I know, this has never actually happened in AotearoaNZ?

Rob Stowell

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:42:21 +1300

Yeah, I kind’ve liked it too. I want to like Shearer. When he’s getting raggy on the Nats, I like him.
But I find his ‘new’ vision of smart green jobs and industries a little borrowed, and a little blue :)
Can we pull lots of people out of poverty…

Islander

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 19:17:54 +1300

Me too – reasoned but with a kick of passion behind it and kicking it to the Nact-

Cecelia

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:56:55 +1300

Well, actually, I liked it. Thanks for the link.

Rob Stowell

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:29:26 +1300

David Shearer's Opening Address-in-reply.

Jeremy Eade

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 16:50:49 +1300

Employers' and manufacturers' lobby group Business New Zealand has injected a little spirit of the Grinch into the Christmas edition of its ManufacturingNZ newsletter, which highlights "three types of people to fire immediately."
Taken from the financial news agency Bloomberg's Business Week publication, the article suggests that "victims", "non-believers" and…

nzlemming

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:37:36 +1300

I don't think that's entirely fair. I can't see him walking away from National any time soon, but he's also publicly criticised them on various matters.

I did say principles. I said nothing about the vehicle he's chosen...

Jeremy Eade

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:34:27 +1300

'Fight Chasing Arsehole’ should be the next big X-Box game.

For the record the issue of media bias against basic Labour Party principles (Unions, the minumum wagers and the dolecitizens) was introduced to me in a University paper in 1991. There is a media problem with these principles, maybe because…

James Francis

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:28:12 +1300

Seconded. Thirded.

Russell Brown

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:25:25 +1300

I'm all right, but I was feeling tired and distressed on Monday, in part because I thought I should have handled things better in a thread I wasn't enjoying but also didn't feel able to ignore.

On the upside, it's a shining day and my lovely workmates and I are…

Paul Williams

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:23:23 +1300

Oh fantastically well said Bart, thank you, thank you, thank you!

< /said without prejudice to any of the parties to the disagreement>

Bart Janssen

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:12:31 +1300

Nope sorry I don't want that to be the last note in this thread. I don't really understand what is going on here, words are being said that are hurtful for no reason that makes sense to me. It doesn't matter if they are said sarcastically or ironically they are…

Russell Brown

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:49:42 +1300

Okay, I'll leave it there. I did genuinely try and explain how I was feeling, but apparently I was only displaying an extraordinary and self-self-serving level of preciousness.

Merry Christmas and a fine summer to you and yours, sincerely.

giovanni tiso

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:35:12 +1300

I understood that Giovanni was pursuing a line of argument, one he’d introduced. I was disappointed that he seemed unwilling or unable to modulate his style when it was evident that someone else was upset, and that, rather, he seemed to express some pride in it.

I was extremely irritated…

Paul Williams

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:29:44 +1300

Yeah, elections bring out the partisan in him. They do in me too.

Chardonnay is meant to be the consolation, I gather :)

Pink Gin too.

But on the issue of a voice/constituency for class, I'm picking Jan Logie to be very effective.

Russell Brown

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:25:15 +1300

Chardonnay is meant to be the consolation, I gather :)

I shall bear that in mind after our show this evening :-)

Sacha

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:24:08 +1300

Clearly, I’m an ideological failure

Chardonnay is meant to be the consolation, I gather :)

Russell Brown

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:23:31 +1300

I don’t think that’s entirely fair. I can’t see him walking away from National any time soon, but he’s also publicly criticised them on various matters.

I suspect he'll level out again, but he was terribly partisan during the election campaign.

Paul Williams

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:20:58 +1300

Also, I don't believe that Farrar is that far right, but only because I don't think he actually has any political principles beyond gaining power.

I don't think that's entirely fair. I can't see him walking away from National any time soon, but he's also publicly criticised them on various…

Russell Brown

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:00:54 +1300

Your first comment on this issue – a sort of idiots guide to the conversation – helped enormously. I saw a consistency in Gio’s comments that I had somehow previously missed. Looking back I now wonder how I missed what now seems obvious (sorry Gio) and has given me pause…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:31:57 +1300

I think I heard it right.
Yesterday, in The Big House, johnkey said.
"I would like to thank the Rugby World Cup for winning us the election"
Not his exact words but I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.

Had to have a juvenile giggle at Phillip Stoner Twyford as…

merc

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:15:10 +1300

Pretty happy about how things have turned out, and Emma I did wonder, clear now. Onya y'all. I'm in Dunedin, right on the beach, broadband but no cellphone signal. There are waves out front, I am not looking, my board and more vitally my wetsuits are in Auckland.

Steve Barnes

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:14:42 +1300

Going Busch...House...
Indeed
BBC to quit Bush House, home to the World Service for 60 years

giovanni tiso

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:20:56 +1300

I can totally see how in context people would take it that way, but I wasn't.

You didn't? ARGH!

Some of Gio comments do have a strange effect on me — he had me licking utensils in my kitchen not all that long ago.

I'm sure it's wrong of me…

Emma Hart

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:13:09 +1300

I think I was getting the term ‘fight baiting’ from the ‘fight chasing arsehole’ comment Emma Hart made.

I can't remember the exact term I used, and I'm not going back and finding it because I have to catch a plane in three hours, but you did notice that I…

rjal

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:51:51 +1300

Thanks for your reply Steve, I think it's time for me to fess up and admit that on my first reading of the Damian vs Gio conversation, Gio looked to be acting in a way that was hopelessly contrarian, and had me grinding my teeth and feeling a strong urge…

Steve Parks

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 02:05:42 +1300

Labour’s leftness seems to be one of those working assumptions. It’s easy to find evidence that they are. Yet it’s also easy to find evidence against,

Just look at one of the more 'Left' policies they came out with in their fairly desperate race to get some electoral traction prior…

Steve Parks

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 02:01:12 +1300

You happened to pick that moment when the subject was also a very topical matter.

Yes, that’s usually the time I try to pick.

That's the spirit!

I’m curious what you think is brave about my writing? Is it brave because I take personal risks that are just foolish on…

WH

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 01:52:11 +1300

There were only 29,710 deaths registered in New Zealand for the year ending 30 September 2011, so maybe we need to link this up with a CGT. I think the major problem with my proposal is going to be family farms. I propose that instead of selling land to realise…

Steve Parks

Wed, 21 Dec 2011 01:14:45 +1300

Steve, I think you’re being a bit unfair to Damian there. My take on that comment was that it was about the Left and Right in the parliamentary and electoral context, as framed by the blog post and following discussion. It’s possible to have a discussion about media bias within…

Lara

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:27:57 +1300

The self-censoring I do in matching the tone of this community is totally swamped by the self-censoring I do because I know the internet is public medium which never forgets.

This. Also, while I'll do myself the courtesy of saying that while I'm probably as clever as ya'll, I am…

nzlemming

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:30:38 +1300

Some people have far too much free time. Also, I don't believe that Farrar is that far right, but only because I don't think he actually has any political principles beyond gaining power.

Sacha

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:19:56 +1300

At least the discussion about "left" etc here didn't get derailed by silly neolibs. Though that James chap must be older than a spotty 15 if his dad was really at school in the 1920s.

Sacha

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:25:36 +1300

Nats signalling Greens arrangement now may be conditional on support past 2014.

Phew

But Turei this afternoon said the idea of abstention had been canvassed "hypothetically" but dismissed.

"We discussed abstention in a hypothetical circumstance. But the fact is that Government has been formed, they have a sufficient majority to…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:13:54 +1300

Going Busch...
if I had Max and Maurice alone in a room I'd do something unspeakable
makes me think of those other bad boys Max and Moritz

House...
I've been swearing in the MPs myself today:
That Bastd John Key
Fkin' Bill English
Bl**dy Nicky Wagner
etc...

Sacha

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:12:09 +1300

Nats signalling Greens arrangement now may be conditional on support past 2014. Hopefully they're not that silly given where the power balance seems likely to be by then.

Prime Minister John Key has signalled he is interested in a long term relationship with the Green Party that would see them…

WH

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:11:39 +1300

Okay – this is my last post – I have work in the morning – but if I had Max and Maurice alone in a room I'd do something unspeakable involving scatological references and freezing pensioners from Invercargill. Haps Craig!

Sacha

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:08:43 +1300

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

a popular maxim.

nzlemming

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:05:00 +1300

The full phrase is "don't be a dick" and I always thought it meant what I said above.

Some guy once said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Whether you share the mythology that has grown up around him, that sentiment is something to live…

WH

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:55:02 +1300

I stand to be corrected by someone who knows what they're talking about, but I'm a uneasy fan of Muldoon's hydroelectric dams. I saw this big red crane here in London recently and it was awesome – it made me think about building stuff. It's like I'm always telling complete…

George Darroch

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:44:30 +1300

The funding would come from the re-introduction of a 10% estate tax of all estates over $100,000, increasing to 20% on all estates over $1,000,000, and 30% on all estates over $10,000,000, indexed to inflation. (Owner occupied residences with a value of under £500,000 might be exempt. The Fund would…

George Darroch

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:43:23 +1300

she struck me as someone who was aware of the issues I’d like a science spokesperson to be aware about, i.e. stuff of concern to the people actually doing the science.

This is what I like in politicians (apart from sincerity and ideological coherence). An awareness of the issues, and…

WH

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:28:16 +1300

This is an improved version of the impeccably conservative Legacy10, but for some reason New Zealand abolished its estate tax and won't have a capital gains tax for the foreseeable future.

WH

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:18:45 +1300

Hey Keith: long time no see.

I've been thinking that New Zealand should create a sovereign wealth fund. It would be managed along the same lines of the Cullen Fund, but it would be called something institutionally reassuring like the NZ Trust Fund, or the Department of Winning.

The funding…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 10:19:22 +1300

“direct business relevance” (however that’s measured)

Probably whether titanium razor wires or steel ones are more effective for fortifying the local McMansionville.

merc

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 08:35:27 +1300

Wisdom you say? Did you know that Sofie means wisdom. Jus' sayin' ;)
Biblically (old testament), Sophia is the wisdom of God.

Lucy Stewart

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 07:53:44 +1300

Just a note Megan Woods was a business manager for our CRI. She doesn't come from a science background AFAIK but her time here should have given her some insight.

Indeed; I had a reasonable amount of contact with her during my Young Labour Christchurch years – she was very…

Islander

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 00:19:34 +1300

O! Beautiful! But I like chestnut unicorns...

Jolisa

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 00:08:56 +1300

For my part, Russell, I would very much like it if you could provide us all with unicorns to ride around on. I think this is a very strong proposal, and I can’t see any reason not to just go ahead with it. There really is no downside.

I believe…

Deborah

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 22:13:18 +1300

Back on topic, and you will please excuse the somewhat munted presentation of this comment – I'm still trying to learn how to.drive my lovely, shiny iPad (Chrissie pressie from my darling)...

Is New Zealand politics being taken over by the commentariat?

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 22:09:46 +1300

Is he reachable?

Goff is . Street corners. His office, 5 minutes from my front door.Go in unannounced. Get a meeting.. Jackie Blue, 5 minutes from my front door. Never seen it open.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:58:51 +1300

Aren’t I allowed to be ageist at my age?

Yes go for it. Be yourself. Take the bull by the horns and be normal. I know from whence you see him, but bear in mind, with age comes wisdom. Wisdom you say? Did you know that Sofie means wisdom. Jus'…

Jeremy Eade

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:53:21 +1300

absolutely, North Korea is a time bomb, but always the optimist.

and "good grace", what an old fashioned word. Russell is such an old school gentleman. But our best reporter.

Islander

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:24:34 +1300

Or of the whole north & south of it blowing up-

Islander

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:24:01 +1300

You're on the Tai Toka roll?
I'll contact Rino after your confirmation-

Jeremy Eade

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:38:26 +1300

Well. I want a calender.

and North Korea has a slim chance of freedom before Xmas.

Islander

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:23:09 +1300

Totally. Sent out a calendar to all his possible constituents (=everyone on the Te Tai Toka roll) with his email on it. I tried it. Answer within an hour.

Jeremy Eade

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:05:13 +1300

Well that's they way it should be. Is he reachable?

George Darroch

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:05:00 +1300

There’s some great houses in New Lynn.

There are some wonderful residences, with incredible harbour views, just minutes from the airport by motorway.

Goff's non-residence wasn't a great look either for a man who claimed to be of the people. Yet Key's absconding gave him one of the largest majorities…

Islander

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:01:52 +1300

Your local member of parliament who isn’t at all local

Um, if you're referring to my local MP, that's Rino Tirikatene – and he's definitely local in the Tai Toka electorate...

Jeremy Eade

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:47:26 +1300

No I realise he's not the only one, but Herne Bay, live in New Lynn. There's some great houses in New Lynn.

Your local member of parliament who isn't at all local. John Key should live in Helensville too.

Islander

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:36:47 +1300

Tell that to dipton-double-dipper Blinglish-

Jeremy Eade

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:15:16 +1300

I was suprised he (Cunliffe) lived in Herne Bay. New Lynn rocks. He really should live there.

Surely an M.P should live in their patch.

Cecelia

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:05:52 +1300

Great looking website: much to read.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:09:22 +1300

Nice website design, srsly..

George Darroch

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:06:34 +1300

There's also the The Social Justice Commission of the Anglican Church of Aotearoa & Polynesia, whose activists proved problematic for the Greens during the campaign. Your point is that they are 'movements', rather than parties, and thus are usually seen as outside the sphere of legitimate political debate; while the pronouncements…

Sacha

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:57:30 +1300

However it is very important not to mistake lack of representation with lack of a constituency.

Especially in disability politics, I hear you.

giovanni tiso

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:51:48 +1300

Please do suggest which other significant political movements/actors you believe we're overlooking. The thread was pretty clearly focused on political parties, and you mentioned unions earlier but if there are others then name them so we can better understand your despair.

Mana, the Poverty Action Group, the Alternative Welfare Working…

Sacha

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:48:12 +1300

Some years back Znet seemed good on providing the discussion-starters but I'm not sure I'd really characterise it as a community.

Isaac Freeman

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:46:26 +1300

I’d actually argue that people of faith are the very people who should be most invested in Church (and synagogue and mosque and temple) and State keeping a wary but civil separation.

Yes, agreed. I'm comfortable with Labour's involvement in Interfaith as a party, but I'm unclear on how that…

Sacha

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:43:35 +1300

I can “dialogue” with people of other faiths without a shadow cabinet portfolio or ministerial warrant attached

Perhaps some sort of counter to the expected strenghtening of the Conservative Party over the next few years? Or a reflection of feedback from some Pacific voters, even?

giovanni tiso

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:41:55 +1300

Practical request: can you please link to a forum that you reckon does a good job with that.

Not a current generalist forum, no, not in English at least. One can find excellent and highly accessible writing outside of socialist discussion forums (Scott Hamilton at Reading the Maps and Dougal…

Sacha

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:41:44 +1300

and here's the earlier question, similarly seeking clarification (and responding in passing to the exasperation you expressed).

__identifying progressivism or the Left with Labour/the Greens means reducing the aspirations of anybody below the middle class to whatever those two parties define as thinkable and achievable in real world terms. This…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:32:39 +1300

We normally just call it “Interfaith”, but I can see why people might like a noun. It is basically what it sounds like: people from different religions talking to each other.

This might sound rather odd coming from me, but I can “dialogue” with people of other faiths without a…

Sacha

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:29:58 +1300

Thanks. Here's my question from today.

insensitive to socioeconomic privilege, its vocabulary and its nuances

Practical request: can you please link to a forum that you reckon does a good job with that.

Also trying to find an earlier one upthread.

Bart Janssen

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:28:48 +1300

presume others are communicating in good faith

Heather is right! This is really really important.

I've been told by friends when I asked them to read something I'd written that they could almost hear me speaking as they read it. I think it was meant as a compliment. I've also…

giovanni tiso

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:13:27 +1300

And I have asked a couple of simple questions to help shed light on what Giovanni expects which he seems to have ignored

Eh what? Ask them again, will you, I didn't wilfully ignore anything. It's been reasonably hard to keep up.

David Hood

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:10:55 +1300

The self-censoring I do in matching the tone of this community is totally swamped by the self-censoring I do because I know the internet is public medium which never forgets.

Sacha

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:09:12 +1300

Can I suggest that the corollary of acting in good grace is to presume others are communicating in good faith?

Good point.

Sacha

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:07:27 +1300

I've been briskly informed in this thread about what's incumbent on me — not that I have any idea how I might go about much of it.

And I have asked a couple of simple questions to help shed light on what Giovanni expects which he seems to have ignored.…

Heather Gaye

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:02:33 +1300

…just weighing in on the “don’t be a dick” debate, since it still seems to be ongoing, one thing that I find both interesting and slightly taxing is how often people here end up arguing semantics. Arguments can go on for pages before someone says “I think we’re on the…

Cecelia

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:01:41 +1300

Woah… ageist much?

Aren't I allowed to be ageist at my age?

Maybe the Herald used a tired looking pic to put up against Shearer's frequent use of the word "fresh". I mean ... fresh. What's fresh?

Isaac Freeman

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:59:16 +1300

What the frig is “Inter-Faith Dialogue”?

We normally just call it "Interfaith", but I can see why people might like a noun. It is basically what it sounds like: people from different religions talking to each other. To what end is often the topic, but the overall objective is usually…

Islander

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:50:57 +1300

his community informs my thinking about New Zealand and the world and it is worth it.
Tautoko!

Lew Stoddart

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:32:18 +1300

What the frig is “Inter-Faith Dialogue”?

Ask Arthur Skinner and/or Glynn Cardy.

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:27:09 +1300

He looks tired and old at only 54

Woah... ageist much? Way too much like the deposition of Harriet Jones, former Prime Minister, for my liking...

BenWilson

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:26:54 +1300

Back off topic:

I've lain awake questioning my own judgement, and feeling pissed off.

There's a lot of that going around (even in the readership. I'm avoiding using the word "lurkers", as it connotes malice) and it's a credit to you that you feel that way. Most blog owners would…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:22:36 +1300

Back on topic!

What the frig is "Inter-Faith Dialogue"?

John Armstrong

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:18:56 +1300

Fantastic to see Phil Twyford get a boost too.

Heather Gaye

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:09:49 +1300

Jacinda is absolutely who I want in my corner against PFB, and if Shearer can do for science and innovation what Aunty Helen did for culture and heritage I'll be a happy camper.

It still kinda looks like they think the Greens are their competition, but.

Also, how many finance…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:08:48 +1300

Shearer taking on Science and Innovation (and Megan Woods as associate; that makes me really happy.)

Just a note Megan Woods was a business manager for our CRI. She doesn't come from a science background AFAIK but her time here should have given her some insight.

It is also significant…

Cecelia

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:43:44 +1300

Getting back to the topic:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6158860/Shearer-to-chart-new-direction-for-

He looks tired and old at only 54 and he keeps saying "fresh". And the IMO brilliant Cunliffe is behind (?) the youngster, Jacinda.

George Darroch

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:43:01 +1300

And Street has health. Did she do anything in foreign affairs? Serious question, as someone who follows foreign affairs I’m not sure what she actually did.

She’s up against Ryall, who has so far proved very competent at pushing a quiet agenda without resistance. She’ll also have to save ACC…

Andrew E

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:38:28 +1300

And Parker gets Finance.

Quelle surprise.

Lucy Stewart

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:37:39 +1300

Jacinda Ardern vaults up to #4, one ahead of Cunliffe, who has Economic Development and Associate Finance, but not quite the broad brief I was urging.

Definitely not the snub some news reports were implying he'd get, though – and it's very good to see Jacinda getting up there.

What…

George Darroch

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:31:00 +1300

And the allocation of portfolios (pdf). A huge lift for Adern (as Russell notes) and a big step for Sio.

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:29:36 +1300

Back on topic!

The Labour shadow Cabinet.

Jacinda Ardern vaults up to #4, one ahead of Cunliffe, who has Economic Development and Associate Finance, but not quite the broad brief I was urging.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:27:53 +1300

might need some time to digest that image

Yes that does take you places huh?

Bart Janssen

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:23:34 +1300

I like to take time out occasionally to make sure Bart knows that, were it possible, I would climb inside his skull and lick his brain all over.

ummm thank you ... might need some time to digest that image

Emma Hart

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:17:22 +1300

Sometimes Bart ,I think your extensive knowledge leaves people digesting info rather than ignoring you. but it would feel the same for you, I am sure.

I like to take time out occasionally to make sure Bart knows that, were it possible, I would climb inside his skull and lick…

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:15:48 +1300

I know the sadness of seeing what I thought a brilliant observation ripped apart, or worse, ignored.

And isn't it strange how loud being ignored can be? Sometimes Bart ,I think your extensive knowledge leaves people digesting info rather than ignoring you. but it would feel the same for you,…

Megan Wegan

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:04:53 +1300

Word. It's often the times I've been...robustly disagreeing with someone that I've learned the most. And I've been pretty close to flouncing on any number of occasions. But PAS always drags me back in.

Bart Janssen

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:03:53 +1300

I'd really hope that neither Damian nor Gio abandon PAS. By all means take a break, but what is said here is important. And your voices are important.

I know what it's like to become fed-up with an argument here and I know what it's like to read a comment…

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:02:10 +1300

On a recent post, I got a rather sharp (but civil) rap over the knuckles for carelessly using “tranny” in a way that was read as a slur on transgendered folks. I’d prepared a snarky riposte, but you know what… there was a fair point there and it lead to…

Megan Wegan

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:02:08 +1300

Well, they both involve, um, heat and pressure, right?

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:01:46 +1300

Edited by Deborah to add
Oops.
That helps. I was getting so confused and thought I was going a bit odd. :)

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:57:01 +1300

ETA: And for all the snarking, sniping and cussing Russell and I have done over the years, I’d like to think we’ve also learned a few things from each other.

For my part, heaps.

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:53:55 +1300

But maybe it’s worth remembering that people complain about the discussion because they value it so much?

Yup – and speaking on my own account, sometimes your ego getting some bruising and the occasional fetching scar is not a bad thing if it leaves you a little more thoughtful, considered…

Isaac Freeman

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:52:49 +1300

I’ve been briskly informed in this thread about what’s incumbent on me – not that I have any idea how I might go about much of it.

It's easy to say "someone should do X" as a vague idealised notion and forget that it can come across as a demand…

3410

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:50:36 +1300

But I've bridged it to climate change and stuff. No one's gonna know, right?

Been reading Jim Hopkins again, huh?

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:47:26 +1300

And seriously, go have that coffee.

I'm actually struggling right at this moment with where to go having written 300 words of a column about coffee then realising I'd already written a whole column about coffee for the same magazine. It's the week's second last big piece of work. Noes!…

George Darroch

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:44:10 +1300

This seems to get to the heart of why “Left” is a controversial word. If it’s defined by not having the power to effect change, then it would seem that the Labour Party can only be Left when they’re in opposition.

Actually, I thought it was fairly clear, and not…

Megan Wegan

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:37:52 +1300

Dude, seriously, thanks.

What you provide with PA is of enormous value. And I disagree with a lot of what's been said here, but I'll let it go. But maybe it's worth remembering that people complain about the discussion because they value it so much?

And seriously, go have that…

George Darroch

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:37:18 +1300

So, everyone, I would regard it as a Really Fucking Big Christmas Favour if you could all just show good grace to each other.
Yeah, thanks Russell. Sincerely.

But you describing Damian as hiding “under the blankets” (like a big sook or something?) was just the last thing I needed…

Isaac Freeman

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:37:14 +1300

On “Don’t be a dick about it”. I like your reframing of it, Russell, as “show good grace to each other”. The latter emphasises reciprocity, but the former doesn’t. The former is one group of people telling another group of people how to behave, and it comes from a position…

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:32:32 +1300

Thanks, Russell.

It's nice to see those words.

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:26:14 +1300

I thought that was the cruxt of a lot of this. People are worn out and tired .They all need a break. Tempers fray.

Yeah, I think so. I'm really looking forward to some quiet time.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:25:45 +1300

As for the word grace, that is far too holy for me ;-)

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:22:20 +1300

feeling pissed off. And I’m just really, really tired.

I thought that was the cruxt of a lot of this. People are worn out and tired .They all need a break. Tempers fray. Some will go off on holiday, open pressies, eat fine cuisine and enjoy there time out. If…

Deborah

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:21:44 +1300

Please, Russell, could you edit that epithet, and my comment, out?

As you wish. It did seem to be the undertone, but I’ve chosen a synonym as a matter of grace.

Edited by Deborah to add:
Oops. Russell and I have both been in editing my comment. To be clear,…

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:19:26 +1300

I’m not being grumpy – although I can’t say I enjoyed the treatment I got by Damian and Emma on this thread,

No, that’s understandable, and I’m sincerely sorry about that. But you describing Damian as hiding “under the blankets” (like a big sook or something?) was just the last…

giovanni tiso

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:12:05 +1300

I'm not being grumpy – although I can't say I enjoyed the treatment I got by Damian and Emma on this thread, and I really don't revel in the stuff as much as people might think that I do – but I have been an unproductive member of the community…

merc

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:04:30 +1300

I can say with absolute hand on my heart that I have chatted with Gio outside this forum, and at all times he has been a gentle, kind and totally dignified person.
I always find opprobrium difficult, Gio has never displayed it to me in any context.

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:01:55 +1300

But feel free to inform Damian that he can come out from under the blankets,

Could you please not phrase it as yet another dig at him? Please?

I’m not taking part in further threads on PAS. As soon as people stop calling me out I’ll stop popping up in…

giovanni tiso

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:59:32 +1300

Gio's been holding forth recently (here and in other venues) about what a ghastly concept it is and I've tried to take it on the chin.

Respectfully, you may possibly have formed a somewhat exaggerated impression of the extent in which the things I say or write outside of here…

merc

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:54:33 +1300

Definitely!
Oh and on the don't be a dick thing, my test, try saying that down at the pub at G.I.
bar patron, whatthefukareya?
merc; don't be a dick
It is an active thing. Whereas – excuse me and a smile – works wonders because it's a passive thing. As…

merc

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:53:29 +1300

And yes, this comment has been self-censored. There's a lot I'm not saying, because it won't progress things at all, and it will only hurt people. However, one thing I must not self-censor is this: I do think that a fair amount of the opprobrium that was directed at Gio…

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:52:11 +1300

Heather Gaye

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:49:20 +1300

I suspect that thinking about the power to effect change, and the power to withstand government intervention, and the power to access government services (very broadly understood), might be a more useful way to analyse class structure in New Zealand

OH PLEASE can someone pick this up and run with…

George Darroch

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:38:40 +1300

The alternative theory is that Labour aren’t really all that Left

Labour's leftness seems to be one of those working assumptions. It's easy to find evidence that they are. Yet it's also easy to find evidence against, large gaps in which there is little to distinguish either way, and lethargy…

Deborah

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:37:11 +1300

I'm sorry. I misread your comment.

Russell Brown

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:31:11 +1300

David Cunliffe has put together a very useful career as a lawyer (I think), a diplomat, a business analyst, and a minister – all very useful skills for a politician. Focusing on just one aspect of either man’s career does not do them justice, at all.

Oh god ... I…

Deborah

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:24:19 +1300

Back on topic: Describing David Cunliffe as a 'business analyst' is like describing Grant Robertson as a 'student politician'. Robertson has put together an effective career as a student politician, a diplomat, a political aide – all very useful skills as a politician and hopefully one day, a minister. David…

Deborah

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:18:27 +1300

Some thoughts:

First up, a big wave to rjal. I hope you might comment again from time to time... It doesn't seem right to welcome you to the community, because it seems you have been here for a long time.

On Self-censoring: I do it all the time here. There's…

BenWilson

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:05:01 +1300

A BA running the country? Come on?

Indeed. Why go by halves? We've got M&A guys instead.

giovanni tiso

Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:56:41 +1300

I want the permalink to this comment etched on my tombstone. Ta.