Muse by Craig Ranapia

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Muse: The Very Odd Future According to Sandra Coney

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  • Rich Lock, in reply to DCBCauchi,

    How is ‘hate media’ defined? Have I got the wrong end of the stick again?

    No, but it's a big issue to deal with (a bit like 'positive discrimination' - does it work/does the end justify the means, or not?).

    And, as other commentators have pointed out, possibly a distraction in this instance. The main point is the abuse of process (or not).

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Craig Young,

    including Tiki Tane’s attitude toward police officers

    Well, strictly speaking, that was NWA...

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Young,

    As for 'hate media', it is simply film, television, Internet or other cultural products that promote the dehumanisation and vilification of specified communities of interest. In pre-Vichy France, it was Jews. In white supremacist discourse, it's African-Americans, Maori and Pacific Islands or immigrant communities. In the work of some militant fundamentalists, it is LGBT community members. And sadly, the same prevails in the case of certain Jamaican ragga music or gangsta rap.

    Who was it that said "I may not agree with your words, but I will support the right to let you say them." I may support the right to freedom of expression, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that I endorse the content in this context.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 573 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Young,

    Rich: Yeah, it was NWA, but Tiki Tane took it up, probably because it also reflects some Maori and Pacific Island experiences and perveptions of policing practice and policy in Aotearoa/New Zealand. And he had the right to freedom of expression in that context, whatever the New Zealand Police might have thought.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 573 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Craig Young,

    However, there’s a particular subgenre of such music that does have objectionable lyrics that condone violence against women, homophobic violence and intra-community gang violence. While I don’t condone or endorse its censorship, I do have the right to disapprove of its content *without* urging its censorship.

    Fair enough. I also feel sad about what hip hop became when the corporations got hold of it, and I hope that Tyler, who seems to be a very talented individual, might move on from the extreme and ugly vernacular he presently favours (surely he can't stay angry at his father forever?). I personally don't want to listen to that shit.

    But I don't see him as some base gangsta either.

    I have no problem at all with hiphop and rap lyrics that discuss poverty, experiences of institutional racism and other forms of social injustice within their lives- including Tiki Tane’s attitude toward police officers, come to that.

    I have no general problem with rap lyrics that discuss parties, money and booty either. Not every rapper has to be a sociologist.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Craig Young,

    Rich: Yeah, it was NWA, but Tiki Tane took it up, probably because it also reflects some Maori and Pacific Island experiences and perveptions of policing practice and policy in Aotearoa/New Zealand.

    And probably because it qualifies as an old-skool party jam. He was MCing a club night. not necessarily making a political broadcast.

    And he had the right to freedom of expression in that context, whatever the New Zealand Police might have thought.

    He had the right outside that context. He doesn't have to prove he's doing the tune in a worthy way.

    Clearly, there would be a problem with actual and purposeful incitement to violence against the police or anyone else. But not everything in a pop, rock or rap tune is to be taken literally.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    Is there anything that can be done now about this? Because I think that it is actually very very problematic that Coney has taken these steps.

    I have sent an OIA request off to the Council asking for the reasons for the decision, and for the correspondence --- I am really curious to find out what they say.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Not every rapper has to be a sociologist.

    I got 99 problems.....out of 100 correct on my final Sociology exam.

    Can we get Tiki's name correct? I believe it's a double-a in Taane, but I may be mistaken.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Whenever I hear that old saw (preferably played with a violin bow) about how music is destroying our kidz I think about John Lennon's "Imagine" and how little that effected the world.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Damn you Ranapia, you’ve got me going now.

    Righto … in May, 1988, I went to see Public Enemy play the Electric Ballroom in London, with my friends.

    It’s a small basement club and they were only playing there because the Hammersmith Odeon had responded to a media panic by canceling their booking.

    The atmosphere was tense, and got really tense when Professor Griff stepped up, said “Dim the lights – I don’t want anyone to take a pot shot at me,” and delivered his “white people are wicked” speech. Knowing what I know now, it was mostly Nation of Islam UFO fucking bullshit.

    To add to the flavor, my friend got mugged for his wallet. He was devastated, not least because he was discovering his Maori identity at the time, and had been relating to a lot of the empowerment rhetoric in the show. He was very let down by what happened.

    But, extremely memorable gig.

    I later interviewed Griff, who was then under fire for some seemingly anti-Semitic comments – again, Nation of Islam bullshit – and was surprised at how much I liked him. He was polite and serious.

    Still later, we saw Public Enemy at the Brixton Academy (“we” including my elder son, in utero) and they were great. But the Guardian reviewer was fucking nuts.

    Flavor snuck out on stage before they came on and urged a good-natured cheer from the waiting crowd. The Guardian reviewer described this as “Nazi-style rabble rousing”. The review went on in a similar vein. It was unbelievable.

    Still later, back in NZ, I saw PE at the Powerstation. It was just a big, happy party. Afterwards, Chuck D and Jonah Lomu did a man-hug.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Rich Lock,

    I got 99 problems…..

    And I'm checkin' my privilege

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    But not everything in a pop, rock or rap tune is to be taken literally.

    Folk music, on the other hand..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Damn you Ranapia, you’ve got me going now.

    Since we're trading Public Enemy anecdotes, even a hippy-hoppity loathing beige guy like me can see why Yo! Bum Rush The Show, It Takes A Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, and Fear of a Black Planet are often cited as three of the most influential, politically engaged albums in the genre. And the second track on their debut (with the otherwise impeccably right-on Vernon Reid credited) is...

    'Sophisticated Bitch'.

    Yup, another gold-digging uppity ho gets put in her place. Which might speak to the truth of where Public Enemy was at, but it sure ain't no party song.

    Would it kill any chance of a booking if I was a club owner? No, but I'd sure like to ask where the sisters fit into their sociopolitical scheme of things nowadays.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    I have sent an OIA request off to the Council asking for the reasons for the decision, and for the correspondence --- I am really curious to find out what they say.

    Prediction: "That'll be $76 an hour". To which you should respond by saying "Ombudsman! Ombudsman! Ombudsman!"

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • DCBCauchi, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    ‘Sophisticated Bitch’.

    Yup, another gold-digging uppity ho gets put in her place. Which might speak to the truth of where Public Enemy was at, but it sure ain’t no party song.

    Would it kill any chance of a booking if I was a club owner? No, but I’d sure like to ask where the sisters fit into their sociopolitical scheme of things nowadays.

    I don’t know the Public Enemy song you mention, but The Terminals have a song about a voodoo doll of an ex-girlfriend. ‘If I want to make you cry … I put a little drop of water in a little doll’s eye’ or something like that. Great song.

    Shellac have a song – a ‘prayer to the one true god above’ – about the fervently wished for deaths of an ex-girlfriend and new boyfriend. It’s reasonably detailed about her but ‘him, just fucking kill him’. Then there’s Big Black.

    Mark E Smith of The Fall wrote some songs about Brix E Smith and the ridiculous violinist she took up with after Mark. They are epically hilarious.

    None of these things can be reduced to a formula, especially a formula with pre-approved tick boxes. Artistic objects, in any form, tend to be deceptively sophisticated complex things. The good ones anyway.

    They have layers of meaning.

    Since Feb 2011 • 320 posts Report Reply

  • DCBCauchi, in reply to Rich Lock,

    And, as other commentators have pointed out, possibly a distraction in this instance. The main point is the abuse of process (or not).

    I totally agree. Love all the answers to Keir's question as to what can be done.

    Since Feb 2011 • 320 posts Report Reply

  • DCBCauchi,

    Art about politics is not politics but art.

    Since Feb 2011 • 320 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to DCBCauchi,

    . . . The Terminals have a song about a voodoo doll of an ex-girlfriend. ‘If I want to make you cry … I put a little drop of water in a little doll’s eye’ or something like that. Great song.

    Wiser heads than mine will know the true origin of Love, Hate, Revenge, but I believe it was first released by Episode Six in 1967. A big hit locally for The Avengers the following year;

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • DCBCauchi, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    But they are different songs. The Terminals' is much better.

    It has venom.

    Since Feb 2011 • 320 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Tyler's response. I suspect he's upset, since he said he was looking forward to it. Tough.

    Meanwhile, I'm late to this debate. I would post a video of his to make the point, but since I really don't like the idea of triggering a rape victim, I certainly won't.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to George Darroch,

    Tyler's response.

    Someone might like to point out to him that it's not the country that has 'banned' him.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to DCBCauchi,

    But they are different songs. The Terminals' is much better.

    It has venom.

    I'm sure it does. According to your quote, it also shares some of the same lyrics.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Rageaholic,

    I’m in two minds about this. One the one hand, a venue owner can refuse to host a show for whatever reason it likes. If the Powerstation (for instance) didn’t want to host Odd Future and the Studio (is that place still going?) hosted it instead, no one would even notice. Council owns the venue and may see is as no different from this. But on the other hand, the owner in this case is the government and the government deciding which shows are ok in which venues makes me uncomfortable. I don’t want to live in a town where only events deemed acceptable by the Council are held in Council venues (they run a lot of them , and a lot of them are for the arts which of course tend to be extremely controversial).
    I can’t wait to see what the actual process involved was. I am hoping the conversation went something like this (short version, obvs):
    Council: Hey this Odd Future bunch are pretty offensive and we’re not sure about holding them in one of our venues.
    BDO: You know, we were having second thoughts anyway because we don’t like them either and it’s just not worth the potential controversy. They’re OUT.

    As for Odd Future being at the BDO? I love the BDO, but I would not go knowing that there were audience members there that think that misogyny and hate-speech is OK or even funny or ironic. If I’m walking around and someone yells slurs at me or says something rapey, I am not going to laugh it off and I am unwilling to put myself in that situation. And there is always the possibility that there will be people whose already misogynist or homophobic views are confirmed (even if it is not what the band intended) and while fuelled on adrenaline or testosterone or booze or whatever decides to act on those views. Not a community I want to be a part of, even just for a day.

    Eden • Since Nov 2010 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • Rageaholic,

    Also, I wonder if this type of controversy (although more likely Beenie Man related) is the reason that the Council was hesitant to allow Mt Smart as a venue this year? Will be interesting to see if they host it again next year.

    Eden • Since Nov 2010 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • annagc,

    I was going to call on you on this wording Craig: 'In addition, RFA advises Auckland Council on the levy setting and governance for...' but realise it comes from the Council website itself (odd as it implies they advise the amenities on governance). Small deviation but to put your mind at ease with regards to funder influence on programming for the amenities funded via the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Act (2008) - there is in fact an independent funding board who make recommendations to Council about levies for each amenity. This process is managed by RFA but the actual funding decisions are made at arms length.

    New Zealand • Since Nov 2011 • 1 posts Report Reply

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