Island Life by David Slack

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Island Life: Let's be Frank

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  • Julie Fairey,

    Key reckons the difference is that Winnie was Foreign Affairs and that should never be outside Cabinet. Whatever.

    I had a nasty thought on the way to work this morning:

    1. John Key has said he won't have Douglas in Cabinet.

    2. Act and National seem to have an in principle agreement that Act with have Ministers outside of Cabinet.

    Do you see where I'm going with this?

    Although frankly (boom boom) I think it'd be a mistake on Key's part which would take the shine off his honeymoon. I guess we'll know by this time next week...

    Puketapapa Mt Roskill, AK… • Since Dec 2007 • 234 posts Report

  • slarty,

    Hopefully it will allow the greater elements of ACTs fuckwittedness to be ignored.

    I don't know what frightens me more: surpassing the USA in draconian and ineffective "law & order" (vindictiveness) policy, or pursuing 1930's economic policy (did Douglas just stop reading economic textbooks written post-war? Galbraith must be spinning...)

    Since Nov 2006 • 290 posts Report

  • slarty,

    Key reckons the difference is that Winnie was Foreign Affairs and that should never be outside Cabinet

    I liked Plunketts question in response: "so no minister outside cabinet will have bilateral talks with foreign governments?" (something like that).

    Key: <long pause> "No".

    I wonder if he realises NZ has about 40 tax treaties with other nations? Probably not - doesn't sound like any of them have been paying attention for the last few years.

    But I guess I can hope that means Dunne won't be Minister of Revenue....

    Since Nov 2006 • 290 posts Report

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Meanwhile, anyone ever heard the words "I was wrong" pass Goerge Walker Herbert Bush's lips?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    surpassing the USA in draconian and ineffective "law & order" (vindictiveness) policy

    Surpassing?

    California three-strikes - three felonies, and third conviction is life with 25 years non-parole.

    ACT's three-strikes - three serious violent offences, and third conviction is life with 25 years non-parole.

    Argue it's stupid (the definition of serious violent offences includes the offence provision under which people would be charged for lightly smacking their kids), but how you get to surpassing the USA is somewhat a mystery.

    [Also, California has the death penalty]

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report

  • giovanni tiso,

    Meanwhile, anyone ever heard the words "I was wrong" pass Goerge Walker Herbert Bush's lips?

    That could be a killer slogan: "John Key - Better than Bush".

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Mr Key acknowledged yesterday that he was wrong and "in hindsight" it had worked well.

    What's wrong with this?

    Yes, I opposed it. I didn't think it would work well. It can. Why would I oppose it as an option now? Do I look like an idiot who can't evaluate evidence?

    It's far superior to the alternative, with which we've had some experience: "having coalition ministers outside cabinet has always been XYZ Party policy."

    Superior, not least because it is honest.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report

  • Jake Pollock,

    Having heeded Craig's repeated exhortations to get over it and look on the bright side, I was about to note on the other thread that, finally, it will be us calling hypocrisy at every turn and holding the government up to impossibly high standards, knowing full well that that the realities of being in government require compromise and occasionally flat out bad behaviour. Finally we could tally up an endless list of petty 'scandals', invariably with a '-gate' suffix, to rub in the faces of government supporters. Finally, it would be our turn to scoff and mock, rather than half-heartedly defend the actions of those whose policies we broadly (though so rarely entirely) support, but whose actions in the real world so rarely live up to even modest ethical standards.

    I just didn't realise it would only take three days for it to kick in.

    Raumati South • Since Nov 2006 • 489 posts Report

  • David Slack,

    What's wrong with this?

    Depends how frequently it happens. Should it happen often, which is the point of the post, then a voter might be forgiven for wondering whether they voted for a party with new policies, or just a party which takes longer to come around to the policies that were right in the first place.

    What follows from that is a further question: how good will they be at getting it right in a timely fashion? Will they know how to respond with the right idea when new circumstances arise?

    Devonport • Since Nov 2006 • 599 posts Report

  • Craig Ranapia,

    That could be a killer slogan: "John Key - Better than Bush".

    OK, set myself up for that one. Nice clean shot, Signor Tiso. But I don't resile from my view that Foreign Affairs and Trade are two portfolios that should not be held by political TARDISes.

    Should it happen frequently, which is the point of the post, then a voter might be forgiven for wondering whether they voted for a party with new policies, or just a party which takes longer to come around to the the policies that were right in the first place.

    Don't know the lie of the land in the leafy avenues of Devonport, but in my neighbourhood nobody voted for a radical ideologue whose motto was 'my way or go play tag with the truck on the highway".

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report

  • David Slack,

    Jeez Craig. Where do I imply otherwise? I'll add emphasis, then:

    which takes longer to come around

    Devonport • Since Nov 2006 • 599 posts Report

  • Matthew Poole,

    But I don't resile from my view that Foreign Affairs and Trade are two portfolios that should not be held by political TARDISes.

    And if John wants to stops Ministers-outside-Cabinet from having to have bilateral treaty discussions with other nations, Revenue needs to be added to that list. We currently have 35 Double Tax Agreements with other countries, and I believe a 36th was concluded earlier this year but isn't yet in force. Revenue is about the busiest department in terms of negotiating treaties with other countries, certainly far, far busier than MFAT.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report

  • Raymond A Francis,

    Who would you prefer David
    A man capapable of admitting mistakes and being prepared to pick the good parts from his opposite numbers policies

    Or Ms Clark's " I have no regrets" and ramming fairl major consitutioal changes through parliment using urgency

    45' South • Since Nov 2006 • 578 posts Report

  • Tristan,

    I think people might be a little peeved that Mr Key won an election by bagging the previous government and the day after being elected...

    the public books "are not that bad"

    Ministers outside cabinet are ok

    this along with

    Kiwibank being ok, Kiwisaver ok

    and the list goes on...


    I can understand why ACT supporters might be a little peeved with the new Labour government headed by John Key

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 221 posts Report

  • newtestleper,

    Hey David, how about "in hindsight" you admit YOU were wrong David - about how well the Greens would do. Effusive and enthusiastic you were on Backbenchers last week; talking up their campaign and how well they're going to do - I think 9 percent was bandied around.

    While we're at, where is Bomber "I swear a lot and the kids like me but really I'm full of crap" Bradbury, who said similar things?

    Wellington • Since Apr 2008 • 5 posts Report

  • David Slack,

    I was wrong.

    Might be less wrong on on specials, but still wrong.

    Devonport • Since Nov 2006 • 599 posts Report

  • James Harton,

    Speaking of specials, does anyone know how long it usually takes to get them sorted?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 51 posts Report

  • Angus Robertson,

    Perhaps something from Mr Brownlee about our light bulbs?

    Maybe the EFA might be kept in place? With some rebranding - and with the creation of a level playing field for all third parties especially inclusive of the union movement - the same degree of policy debate in 2008 (none) might be present in 2011.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report

  • Ian MacKay,

    My hindsight is totally unimportant except to the cat. John Key's hindsight suggests lack of foresight and that is from someone whose opinions do matter- a lot.

    Bleheim • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report

  • Deborah,

    Meh. There have been some full and frank, though usually polite, exchanges of views in this household about the potential worth of the National-led government, but using the 'Minister outside cabinet' device was not one of the points up for discussion. It was unusual last time around, but the device does seem to work. Most of our constitutional and parliamentary arrangements are a matter of convention, built up over time through practice and incremental change. This is just one of those incremental changes.

    I don't recall Key campaigning on 'no Ministers outside Cabinet.'

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1447 posts Report

  • slarty,

    but how you get to surpassing the USA is somewhat a mystery.

    Fair point: I was in a rush. Here's the nuance of where my tiny mind had gone.

    Of the 50 States in the Union, 24 have some form of 3 strikes rule.

    While the death penalty is in the federal (and military) toolbox, only 34 States have it on their books, and at any given time a number of them will have a moratorium.

    We have a tool called preventative detention that has been criticised by the UNHCR, but is 'tolerated' in the majority. Personally I think it's a good compromise given the checks and balances in our system.

    This allows ongoing detention of violent offenders for reasons of public safety: so it can be strongly argued we already have the tool we need, it is just that we want to instruct the judiciary to apply it more often.

    On this basis, and taking into account NZ is now up there in terms of incarceration (we're in the company of countries like Bahrain and Israel), we are could be coming close to becoming the most draconian western democracy in proportional (if not absolute) terms.

    Since Nov 2006 • 290 posts Report

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Who would you prefer David
    A man capapable of admitting mistakes and being prepared to pick the good parts from his opposite numbers policies

    If there had been more time spent looking at ( or bothering to show up) policies whilst they were in select commitee meetings etc instead of practising the art of (wasting time) the filibuster then perhaps one may have discovered many problems didn't exist. Mr Brownlee has this to perfection, I guess I could compliment here, but I wont. I imagine Key will even suggest Helen was a good PM, now that would be interesting.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report

  • David Slack,

    Hey David, how about "in hindsight" you admit YOU were wrong David - about how well the Greens would do. Effusive and enthusiastic you were on Backbenchers last week; talking up their campaign and how well they're going to do - I think 9 percent was bandied around.
    ……

    I was wrong.
    Might be less wrong on on specials, but still wrong.

    Hey, here's a thought, though: I was right on the money about the Libertarianz vote.

    Devonport • Since Nov 2006 • 599 posts Report

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Also the Bill and Ben party could have been the 10,000 votes in central Auckland that Judith was missing. How do we find out where those votes came from?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    ramming fairl major consitutioal changes through parliment using urgency

    Such as?

    Electoral Finance Act - no.
    Supreme Court Act - no.

    You're not talking about the Local Government Act, are you?

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report

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