Hard News: When that awful thing happens
425 Responses
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I consider persecuting people for a victim less crime improper but then I think oppression is a bad thing.
I have no problem with that. But it should be directed at parliament, not at the police. Particularly not at a time when three of them were shot for trying to enforce the law.
I find the "this wouldn't have happened if pot were legal" argument right now about as distasteful as the "this is why police should have tasers". I wish the media and the public would let the police bury their dead before they jump on the body/band wagon.
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Matthew touched on the Taser issue, but apparently ALL FRONTLINE POLICE are going to carry them now?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10571724When did everyone getting one become part of the plan? I thought the idea was they would replace the use of firearms in certain situations?
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I actually have no big worries about the second amendment, the right to bare arms. The reason for that amendment was to keep the Govt. in check, ie. "Don't fuck with us, we got guns." It makes governments think twice before messing with peoples basic rights and allows the people to defend against an occupying force.
Well, that's the theory anyway but as with most theories of social behaviour it falls very short of being true. Americans have been stripped of many of their rights in the name of the Govt. "protecting" them from an invented enemy, whether that enemy be terrorism or drugs makes little difference.
The trouble with laws that protect the general populous from deviant behaviour is that deviance is an artificially constructed premise, a label. The term "you have nothing to worry about unless you are a criminal" hold no water when laws can be changed for the benefit of those who are already privileged and demonise those who are struggling to survive the oppression of the elite or the paranoid followers of a populist political party.
Knee jerk reactions to events such as this can lead to unintended consequences that far outweigh the benefits to society as a whole, this we have seen time and time again.
If you are one of those that think "It could never happen here" just remember your "lifetime" driving licence. A small step on the slippery road to the thin end of the wedge.
I love the smell of mixed metaphors in the morning. -
If I got a gun license, I could buy guns without anyone knowing what I've bought, right?
You could buy rifles and shotguns, yes. If you wanted to buy hand guns or "military-style semi-automatic" rifles, you need to get extra endorsements on the licence, pay more money, be vetted even more thoroughly, have improved storage, and in the case of hand guns be a member of a registered shooting club. It's not a free-for-all once you've got a firearms licence, and the police do actually take the fit-and-proper person test pretty seriously.
I could then sell them to random crims, swap them for weed, bury them in stashes around the place, etc, and unless I got caught in the act nobody would be the wiser? That doesn't sound sensible to me.
What would a registry achieve? Other than the stashing bit, your other theoretical actions are already illegal (assuming that the "purchaser" doesn't have a firearms licence). It's illegal to be in possession of a firearm without a licence, and the penalty is three months' jail (a little light, but still time inside) and/or a $1k fine. Selling to an unlicensed purchaser is also illegal, and attracts the same penalties. In the case of "restricted" firearms, such as MSSAs or hand guns, the penalty goes up to three years and/or $4k.
Once again, criminals break the law, by definition. The registry will catch law-abiding firearms owners, and do not a bloody thing to deter criminals. You can even get around the restrictions on supply by faking a burglary and then reporting the weapons to the police as having been stolen. Been done before, and recently. Of course the cops caught on and the supplier got done in a big way for supply without permit and supply to unlicensed receivers, but it can be and has been tried in this country in the recent past. A registry wouldn't change that, either.
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I actually have no big worries about the second amendment, the right to bare arms.
What has Michelle Obama to do with any of this?
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Heh.
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Legal harassment of cannabis users is an unfortunate aspect of my society. However I do not accept the situation justifies a survivalist response involving the shooting of unarmed police officers or anybody else for that matter.
But it has to be said that survivalism is a widely held political position among men in this country.In the last few days I have heard pretty consistently the view that the police overstepped the privacy of a righteous member of our society, and the continued harassment of cannabis smokers, growers and sellers has made such confrontations inevitable.
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"Your laws are sane and workable"
Lets recap here. Our laws are workable, because the Police did nothing when Jans lifetime firearms & collectors licenses lapsed under a new system, ultimately resulting in multipul shootings & death.
Gun Collectors like this guy Hot Water Beach gun collector John Mabey, 43 have put many lethal weapons into our community and it simply must stop.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/19800It's a good thing we live in a Democracy and can change this.
License all owners & Registar of all weapons including airrifles along a blanket ban of MSSAs & handguns. No additional cost involved = user pays.
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License all owners & Registar of all weapons...
Any chance those of you still putting forth the "Register all weapons" idea could actually take the time to offer some sort of counter-argument to Matthew Poole? Rather than just stating it as if it is obviously some kind of solution when Matthew has repeatedly given clear reasons why it would make little to no difference. If you have counter arguments I'm all for hearing them.
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Rather than just stating it as if it is obviously some kind of solution when Matthew has repeatedly given clear reasons why it would make little to no difference.
It's the corrosive effect that idiots like Mr Dexter have on what is acceptable argument style. Along those lines, Paul Buchanan has a somewhat intellectual take on misuse of terms like socialist and fascist.
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A S,
Lets recap here. Our laws are workable, because the Police did nothing when Jans lifetime firearms & collectors licenses lapsed under a new system, ultimately resulting in multipul shootings & death.
Let's just conveniently ignore the blindingly obvious fact that what Molenaar did was illegal then, and remains illegal now.
Let's also just ignore that we don't actually know where his guns came from, and assume that somehow he managed to hide a fairly substantial number for more than a decade without anyone knowing, or knowing but not reporting this to anyone.
Gun Collectors like this guy Hot Water Beach gun collector John Mabey, 43 have put many lethal weapons into our community and it simply must stop.
For which he will probably end up spending quite a bit of time in prison, and you can bet he will never legally handle another firearm.
On the sheer stupidity of emulating the demonstrated failure of other nations that is a register of firearms, In addition to the comments of others, I'll just point out one last time that. They. Don't. Work.
Personally, I'd rather the police budget got spent on actual policing, not on politically inspired wank that is ultimately futile. Guess I'm a bit weird like that.
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Its oh so true that Most cannabis growers/dealers cause no problems at all for the police when getting busted ............ thats why I wrote earlier in the thread that the 4 police were on a routine 'lark' , just like its a lark when they play fly boys in the helicopters and pull out or destroy the small percentage of outdoor grown cannabis that they find.
I'm sure theres police officers who enjoy the lack of fight or abuse they get from 'routine' cannabis busts, it must be so much better and safer than say domestics.
There are certainly many police officers in the police force who have forged careers and gained promotions on drugs and cannabis busts.
And to what end ?????
All cannabis prohibition succeeded in was in the rapid growth and influence of gangs and the setting up of cannabis distribution networks which were of use to the gangs when the far more lucrative methamphetamine market was developed.
But anyway I'm wandering of topic so I'll say once more to those who still dont get.
Jan Moeller seems to have lived and operated in the Black market cannabis scene.
Violence and standovers from gangs or violent criminal ( ala Graham Burton ) are valid business methods in the black market. It is also normal business that the police are your enemy. It is also normal ( for some ) to have weapons and fortify their business premise.
This is the environment that jan lived in . This is the dark side of prohibition which people and posters like to pretend does not exist or that it does not shape/damage/alter a persons psyche who lives and operates in it.
Whats offensive to me is all the pretence ( or ignorance ) that prohibition had nothing to do with the blood bath in napier.
The thing that makes Napier stand out from other prohibition linked murders is that it was a police officer who died.
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uh huh! he (Snee) was in the Line of Duty, not just the Line of Fire.. we should all be so bloody lucky! (or something like that)
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What would a registry achieve?
If the registry showed you had nine guns, the cops could drop by to verify they were in the locked cabinet where they were meant to be.
If they weren't and you had no reasonable excuse, you would be prosecuted. I think that just as most people rego their car, most people would register their guns. Particularly if you faced a five year sentence, as in the UK.
I don't think it's any more of an imposition for people to register guns than register cars. In much of the less civilised areas of NZ (i.e. not Wellington), a car is a neccessity, but you still need a license and rego. A gun is never a necessity in the modern world, so why shouldn't people have to go through the same process for guns as they do cars.
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nz native:
I am in agreement that
a)a limited amount of cannabis could be grown - or possessed - for personal use.
b)an awful lot of valuable police time is taken up with trying to block or curtail small-time users or growers.Note: I dont think a 'garage-ful' of cannabis is smalltime or for personal use.
Note: most people cant be bothered producing their own cannabis (how many alcohol-drinkers produce their own booze?) so purchase the stuff. This brings us to suppliers.Who are - very frequently- allied, reluctantly or deliberately, to various gangs. Or, if free-lance, vulnerable to gang standover tactics.
Which is no fukking excuse whatsoever for Molenaar's outrageous crime. (It wasnt just Senior Constable Snee's death - it was 2 other
police officers, and a civilian, who were very seriously wounded.)I would maintain that people who engage in growing-for-supply are well aware of the risks, and just hope things wont happen to them. Bad cess. Things will.
I would support decriminilisation of my 1st two points.
For the record, I have smoked cannabis twice in my life: once in Hawai'i - in my pipe. Because I have never inhaled tobacco - or cannabis- smoke, it was a nothing experience. Once with my lamented friend Robin Morrison - he toking, me, smoking my pipe.
I realised Robin was extremely ill then (he died the following year) & I thought my sort-of joining him would be a comfort.I love coffee, occaisional cigars or a pipe (4-5 times a month); chocolate, single malts, & good wine. They're drugs. I'm sweet with that. And for those who enjoy a bit of cannabis now & then - why not.
But to use this whole incredible (& paranoid) "prohibition" thing as an explanation - and *excuse*- for what happened in Napier last week, is sick.
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oh and Sacha, while you're at it, you must not omit to submit the very use of term 'intellectual' to the same scrutinous criteria of concept-stretching, and - i would even further say - evaporation of all worldly referents for same!
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Rich of Observationz - you very obviously dont live in a modern remote area-
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how many cops was it were killed during the american prohibition then? HEAPS BRO, HEAPS!
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If the registry showed you had nine guns, the cops could drop by to verify they were in the locked cabinet where they were meant to be.
If they weren't and you had no reasonable excuse, you would be prosecuted. I think that just as most people rego their car, most people would register their guns. Particularly if you faced a five year sentence, as in the UK.
I don't think it's any more of an imposition for people to register guns than register cars. In much of the less civilised areas of NZ (i.e. not Wellington), a car is a neccessity, but you still need a license and rego. A gun is never a necessity in the modern world, so why shouldn't people have to go through the same process for guns as they do cars.
None of which addresses Mr Poole's well-made points upthread, unfortunately.
Most people will register guns. Criminals won't. They will find an illegal source and keep them hidden once purchased, as Matthew has already pointed out.
Your car example falls down as follows: unregistered, unlicenced cars can and do exist, but they're not much use sitting in a driveway or garage. They need to be used, and they probably will be used on public roads relatively frequently. This increases the chances of a police stop, and legal consequences (confiscation or whatever).
Illegal (unregistered) guns will only be used infrequently and probably not in full public view - Mr Crim isn't going to walk down the street to fetch a pint of milk and some fags from the dairy on a daily basis with his illegally obtained assualt rifle over his shoulder. They are instead going to be used in circumstances where the person on the wrong end will be unlikely to complain - a standover, gang war or similar.
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little p, are you seriously equating the USA prohibition against alcohol era with current conditions in ANZ?
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Oh, and Islander has aleady alluded to, if you live in a remote area, the police aren't going to be around much to check on either your car rego or your gun rego. You can probably get away with having neither registered and in frequent use for long periods of time.
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A S,
If the registry showed you had nine guns, the cops could drop by to verify they were in the locked cabinet where they were meant to be.
If they weren't and you had no reasonable excuse, you would be prosecuted. I think that just as most people rego their car, most people would register their guns.
Sorry, but I'm not really seeing the point of it. The police can drop by already if they really wish to examine your firearms. I don't see what a registry will add to the mix except for costs to the taxpayer and unwanted work for the police.
What use is the hypothetical registry if your 9 firearms are stolen? None whatsoever. Is the person who stole them going to register them? Unlikely. So the 9 formerly registered firearms have now vanished. Utility of register, pretty much zero.
If you are a law abiding gun owner, the register serves no earthly purpose as you aren't going to use your guns for anything illegal. If you are criminally inclined, the register will not be something you concern yourself with.
In fact with the somewhat less than watertight police data security track record, it could serve to give criminals a great shopping list for people to rob.
The assumption that law abiding people would register/hand in their rifles was found to be somewhat wanting in aussie.
I'd worry more that treating the law abiding as potential criminal held back from murderous mayhem only because of a register isn't exactly going to endear the police to them, or make them inclined to support them much either. Result, less support for the police to do their job, rather similar to the issues associated with recreational drug use and a lack of support for the police.
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A S,
You beat me to it, Rich. Well said.
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well, i am certainly asking you to consider the phenomenon of 'cop-killing' in the context of both erm, epochs..
and one can never, ever, underestimate the power of prohibition, least of all taboo, on the ongoing formation of a human psyche, now can one?
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Gun registries won't work immediately. Over the years though, most guns will fall into the hands of people that don't want to go to jail for the sake of a bit of paperwork. After all, a register gun kills possums just as well as an unregistered one.
If you get your guns pinched, you're obliged to immediately report that and the cops will be round. If it turns out you actually sold them then (like people who pretend their partner was driving teh car to get off speeding tickets) you'll be in jail.
There'll always be some number of illegal guns around, but this would diminish them.
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