Hard News: What to Do?
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Oooo! Imperator Fish! Splendid new site for me!
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oops. bit of a table misreading there. Pre-1900 European was the most popular, followed by Pakeha, Settler and Colonist (the latter gone by 1880). After 1900, it was New Zealander followed by European, with the odd mention of Maorilander. Interesting that the SOED didn't catch up with the change in use of New Zealander until after 1965.
Also, while pre1900 New Zealander referred to Maori, the more popular terms were Native & Maori. -
I don't believe that ethnicity mandates national or political adherence. If your hypothetical person was of Irish ethnicity, the fact that they didn't adhere to republicanism wouldn't change that.
No no no no, because in some cases they would be British (because who's more British than a serviceman?) but in others they'd be Irish, because they'd be from the Irish Isle, right?
So you can have different ethnicities depending. (See Hobsbawm.)
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Islander
just how many are "many generations"
Not enough for you. On one side not much at all, on the other the records disappear in a mist of illiteracy.
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"the problem with `New Zealander' is that denying the use of the term `New Zealander' to people in New Zealand with full citizenship is pretty dodgy."
I hadn't looked at it that way. Perhaps we should use the phoentic "Nu Z'landa" and leave the proper pronunciation to mean the nationality.
To be honest I might have put "Kiwi", but I can't remember.
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Also, ethnicity implies a group with an established common heritage. I don't believe that any post-1600 colonial people have had long enough to really reach that. Maybe Hispanic people, though that gets disputed.
Why? Time moves much faster now. We migrate faster, fight faster, communicate faster and integrate faster. If your personal history only goes back two generations, then that's your heritage.
Tze Ming:
I mean, hello, this is English we're using here.
Haven't you heard our esteemed leader speak, That's not English.
More seriously, most of us adopt and try to respect the Maori additions that make a unique New Zealand language. Go sailing in New Zealand and look at the place names, the birds the trees.
Was the English language invented in New Zealand? Was rugby?
Maori and pacific island populations a mainstay of our rugby.
Were lamb roasts, cattle and sheep farming, eating copious amounts of dairy products, and gathering with your family at Christmas around a pinus radiata? Where do meringues come from, and why did anyone care about Anna Pavlova to start with?
I'm no fan of the pav. But I like my puha, kumara and fish, I like the bush and the birds and the sea. And I prefer sailing in my holidays to christmas dinner.
Who forged this postcolonial nation by fighting fascists in Europe? Um... not my family.
Last I looked, the fight against fascism also covered Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Phillipines, China...., and NZ forces included a pretty large non-european element that still defines alot of the history of the New Zealand involvement in the wars.
If this is 'New Zealand' ethnicity, it is a placeholder for 'New Zealand European/Pakeha ethnicity' - and I'll never be one of them (especially the dairy products and meringue bit).
If in doubt, set up a straw man and knock it down.
Tze Ming is of course, entitled to her ethnicity. Why does she feel she has to define mine?
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What do you mean by illiteracy, Logan, and who's illiteracy?
Probably mine. Perhaps illiteracy is the wrong word. Maybe you'd call it apathy?
My father, and his father are/were pretty deeply connected to the Auckland area. They were comfortable enough with their own place here not to tie their place in the world to the origins of that root of the family.
And for me, that's where I see the clear break starting.
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Tze Ming is of course, entitled to her ethnicity. Why does she feel she has to define mine?
Perhaps you'd best re-read what she's actually saying, Logan. By claiming the label "New Zealander" for themselves a certain group of Pakeha are denying it to all other ethnic groups. That's an organised, aggressive and ignorant act, and resistance is to be expected.
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I agree with the idea that the CIR legislation could be substantially improved, but I've been perturbed by the idea some have stated that they should just be turfed out. It is not impossible to write CIR questions that give you nosebleeds as you untangle them. Take for example Unite union's current one:
"Should the adult minimum wage be raised in steps over the next three years, starting with an immediate rise to $15 per hour, until it reaches 66% of the average total hourly earnings as defined in the Quarterly Employment Survey?"
- http://www.unite.org.nz -
WH,
Perhaps you'd best re-read what she's actually saying, Logan. By claiming the label "New Zealander" for themselves a certain group of Pakeha are denying it to all other ethnic groups. That's an organised, aggressive and ignorant act, and resistance is to be expected.
redneck
I'd be really disappointed if this sort of comment was to become typical of our discussions. Do you characterise everyone you disagree with in such strident and tendentious terms?
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By claiming the label "New Zealander" for themselves a certain group of Pakeha are denying it to all other ethnic groups. That's an organised, aggressive and ignorant act, and resistance is to be expected.
Maybe, but I read Tze Ming's comments as conceding the label to 'a certain group of Pakeha' rather than resisting it.
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I have already apologised for my earlier use of the term "redneck" as shorthand for several dimensions in material I am unable to circulate here. I regret that.
People denying power relationships does annoy me, yes, and I suspect I share that sentiment with others like Tze Ming. I doubt that's going to make this space resemble Kiwibog any time soon, but your comment is noted and I'll pay more attention to my choice of words.
Reading the source material, it seems reasonable to me in this instance to describe the campaign as "organised, aggressive and ignorant". By all means address the substance of what I said, rather than reducing it to some sort of simultaneously personalised and all-encompassing disagreement. I was talking about a movement, not any particular individuals. We're not all tarred with the same brush, but I believe we have a basic human duty to watch out for each other and to speak up.
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I read Tze Ming's comments as conceding the label to 'a certain group of Pakeha' rather than resisting it.
I read an unequivocal challenge for us Pakeha of European ancestry to sort it out and leave her out of it. I don't believe we've done that yet.
However, when I say repeatedly on this blog sort it out amongst yourselves, my meaning is not 'email me, a Chinese person, with your opinions on why you're not Pakeha or New Zealand European but 'just a New Zealander'. My meaning is email a white person, for example, Russell Brown, with your opinions on why you're not Pakeha or New Zealand European but 'just a New Zealander'.
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If you are 'just a New Zealander' of European extraction and have problems with how the state and society or even some inconsequential non-white blogger describes you - as I keep saying, sort it out amongst yourselves. I mean it.
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I'm missing Michael King around about now.
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Maori and pacific island populations a mainstay of our rugby.
Because there's no way that's racist....
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WH,
a basic human duty to watch out for each other and to speak up
People denying power relationships does annoy me, yes, and I suspect I share that sentiment with others like Tze Ming
There's a lot to admire about that. I think you're right to say that there are unattractive aspects to the 'New Zealander' discussion, but it's easy to reduce other people's complex intuitions about identity into straw men. By framing the argument in it's most unattractive form, you're saddling your opponents with a kind of stigma.
While for some the term 'New Zealander' may represent a rejection of particular domestic narratives about indigineity, to others it may represent an affirmative sense of simply belonging to a place. Or something else.
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Knuckles The Malevolent Nun
Whoa! Flashback. :)
The really weird thing (in a good way) is that Roger Langridge is now writing and drawing a Muppet Show comic -- and it doesn't really seem that big a stretch. :)
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who's more British than a serviceman?
A lot of people if the serviceman is Maori, Nepali or indeed Irish. Serving in the British armed forces doesn't grant you British nationality, let alone ethnicity.
I think the concept you are looking for is different to ethnicity. Maybe, as you suggest, ethnicity is taking on the meaning of national allegiance. If so we probably need another word to take over the previous meaning, like "ethnic ancestry" or something.
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I agree with the idea that the CIR legislation could be substantially improved, but I've been perturbed by the idea some have stated that they should just be turfed out. It is not impossible to write CIR questions that give you nosebleeds as you untangle them.
binary heart: Let's get real, they're very expensive non-binding opinion polls. If a pressure group wants to start a petition, or lobby for legislative changes, they're perfectly entitled to. I just don't think given them the spurious authority of being run by an electoral agency means anything much.
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Let's get real, they're very expensive non-binding opinion polls. If a pressure group wants to start a petition, or lobby for legislative changes, they're perfectly entitled to. I just don't think given them the spurious authority of being run by an electoral agency means anything much.
I'd see them as being useful for something where you want the public to have a say. Changing NZ's flag for example. Or a moral issue, like the battery hens one a while ago. Or maybe some issue about our electoral system. Gives guidance to parliament who makes the final decision, about an issue where parliament probably wants guidance from the electorate.
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Kyle,
I agree referendums can be useful where parliament wants guidance, as you say.But those wouldn't be citizens initiated, they would be more like the one we had on the electoral system.
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Let's get real, they're very expensive non-binding opinion polls.
I am really with Craig on this. Non-binding CIRs are really faux democracy, tantamount to writing a Letter to the Editor on a very large scale.
For example, I would be interested in gathering signatures for a CIR that says "The ACT Party should be excluded from all forms of government", and I may well get sufficient monikers.
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Yes true.
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More seriously, most of us adopt and try to respect the Maori additions that make a unique New Zealand language.
That’s a pretty flimsy rebuttal: it’s still English, and we still use it to communicate with other, non-NZ, English speakers. We didn’t invent the language.
If this is 'New Zealand' ethnicity, it is a placeholder for 'New Zealand European/Pakeha ethnicity' - and I'll never be one of them (especially the dairy products and meringue bit).
If in doubt, set up a straw man and knock it down.How is it a straw man? You haven’t been asked again for your citizenship or nationality, you have been asked for your ethnicity. Put ‘New Zealander’ down if you want - as far as I know there’s no law against writing nonsense answers if they’re in good faith, but it’s still a nonsense answer.
Was the English language invented in New Zealand? Was rugby?
Maori and pacific island populations a mainstay of our rugby.Now, that is a straw man.
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Now if you just chucked in some stuff about nanny state, Geoff, you'd even get Act supporters signing it.
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