Do I get to correct any and all parents? Or just my own?

No, no, you don't understand at all. Parents get to correct anybody.

Dealing in press releases, I've found the most notable feature of the debate to be David Lane somehow getting even weirder.

The main problem for me with a lot of ethnicity questions is that the concept is so confused and the domain so oddly calibrated. I wish the questioners would actually ask the…

Provided you smite them only with a mote, I think, or is it a moat in British Tory usage.

On…

Which had the meaning 'a person of predominantly European descent' ascribed to it by the 1870s. (That's the main noun: the other one refers to its probable antecedent,…

well no actually, some are more blunt about the purpose of the question:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=273
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/racefactcb.html

And Australians have social science rivalled only by the French:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Australia
Ethniicity standard

Isn't that a bit like saying "I don't speak with an accent — everyone else…

The reason is 100 years from now no one answering the census will be alive and we'll really want to know the answers to these questions.

This is true, but on the other hand historians are going to have a field day with this whole argument in years to come,…

Also, Brent raises some good points. I agree with his concerns with "New Zealander" and "Kiwi".

New Zealand European – a bit of a mouthful, and disliked by those who no longer believe that they have any affinity with…

And the candidates are :

And we think we have an identity crisis...

New Zealand-Aotearoa might have two names, but at least they refer to the same thing. The English live in a country with five accepted, but not interchangeable names: England, Britain, Great Britain, the United Kingdom and the…

I should point out that censuses aren't just used in public policy, they give valuable information about our country.

Up to a point, Kyle — but I'd suggest that not everything the public is interested in is a matter of public interest. And when you're legally compelling everyone to participate,…

"An ethnic community is a named human population with shared ancestry, myths, histories and cultures, having an association with a specific territory and a sense of solidarity" (Anthony Smith).

What I find interesting about this definition is the use of the word "named". I…

So, could someone enlighten me public policy guidance comes from asking a question about people's religious beliefs? Last time I looked, we don't live in a theocracy.

I should point out that censuses aren't just used in public policy, they give valuable information about our country.

We would know a…

I still can't perceive the offence. The census is an exercise in gathering data to guide policy, not a statement of feelings. Race and ethnicity have important implications in, to take one example, public health policy.

So, could someone enlighten me public policy guidance comes from asking a question about…

Which is ancestry, not ethnicity. And if that's the data Stats want then that's what they should ask.

I still can't perceive the offence. The census is an exercise in gathering data to guide policy, not a statement of feelings. Race and ethnicity have important implications in, to take one…

There's more to the European aspects of our culture than just ancestry, and pointing to us ....ummm,,, what do I call us if NZ European or Pakeha is no good?? I'll stick with NZ European for now...…

NZ European is basically just “New Zealander of European decent”

Which is ancestry, not ethnicity. And if that's the data Stats want then that's what they should ask.

Back when Tze Ming made her stand I think my question was whether you could have no ethnicity. I still think that's…

None of the reasons *I* want to call myself a New Zealander have anything to do with the cliché that Tze Ming put forward.

She didn’t put forward a cliché, she was responding to actual comments sent to her from people explaining why they didn’t want to call themselves Pakeha…

Not sure how my comment on rugby is a straw man, or racist.

Well, I didn't think so :-) more an observation of fact.

Kerry, it was an observation of a fact that Tze Ming wouldn’t have disagreed with; it’s just not relevant to the point supposedly being refuted.…

A smack probably has no part in good Panteral correction then...

I beg to differ...

A smack probably has no part in good Panteral correction then...

I beg to differ...

Not sure how my comment on rugby is a straw man, or racist.

Well, I didn't think so :-) more an observation of fact.

I've just finished a paper in sports history and I'll quote this definition of ethnicity "An ethnic community is a named human population with shared ancestry,…

I agree, WH – all sides are complex, and the organised campaign does not represent all the people or motivations involved. Thanks for pulling me up on it.

With you being so reasonable I feel uncomfortable about having said anything at all, and I hope I didn't suggest I'm in…

How is it a straw man?

Because she first defines the thing that she wants to attack, in a way that she can attack, and then attacks it?

None of the reasons *I* want to call myself a New Zealander have anything to do with the cliche that Tze Ming…

Craig: Let's get real, they're very expensive non-binding opinion polls. If a pressure group wants to start a petition, or lobby for legislative changes, they're perfectly entitled to. I just don't think given them the spurious authority of being run by an electoral agency means anything much.

I think I…

While I am in favour of the opening up of the waterfront, I'm confused as to why the City Council should be involved with providing the Cruise Ship terminal (or have I got that wrong?).

Because the city council wants the cruise ships to come to their city. Same way…

I think you're right to say that there are unattractive aspects to the 'New Zealander' discussion, but it's easy to reduce other people's complex intuitions about identity into straw men. By framing the argument in it's most unattractive form, you're saddling your opponents with a kind of stigma.

While for…

More seriously, most of us adopt and try to respect the Maori additions that make a unique New Zealand language.

That’s a pretty flimsy rebuttal: it’s still English, and we still use it to communicate with other, non-NZ, English speakers. We didn’t invent the language.

__If this is 'New Zealand'…

Let's get real, they're very expensive non-binding opinion polls.

I am really with Craig on this. Non-binding CIRs are really faux democracy, tantamount to writing a Letter to the Editor on a very large scale.

For example, I would be interested in gathering signatures for a CIR that says "The…

I agree referendums can be useful where parliament wants guidance, as you say.But those wouldn't be citizens initiated, they would be more like the one we had on the electoral system.

Let's get real, they're very expensive non-binding opinion polls. If a pressure group wants to start a petition, or lobby for legislative changes, they're perfectly entitled to. I just don't think given them the spurious authority of being run by an electoral agency means anything much.

I'd see them as…

I agree with the idea that the CIR legislation could be substantially improved, but I've been perturbed by the idea some have stated that they should just be turfed out. It is not impossible to write CIR questions that give you nosebleeds as you untangle them.

binary heart: Let's get…

who's more British than a serviceman?

A lot of people if the serviceman is Maori, Nepali or indeed Irish. Serving in the British armed forces doesn't grant you British nationality, let alone ethnicity.

I think the concept you are looking for is different to ethnicity. Maybe, as you suggest, ethnicity…

Knuckles The Malevolent Nun

Whoa! Flashback. :)

The really weird thing (in a good way) is that Roger Langridge is now writing and drawing a Muppet Show comic — and it doesn't really seem that big a stretch. :)

a basic human duty to watch out for each other and to speak up

People denying power relationships does annoy me, yes, and I suspect I share that sentiment with others like Tze Ming

There's a lot to admire about that. I think you're right to say that there are…

Maori and pacific island populations a mainstay of our rugby.

Because there's no way that's racist....

I read Tze Ming's comments as conceding the label to 'a certain group of Pakeha' rather than resisting it.

I read an unequivocal challenge for us Pakeha of European ancestry to sort it out and leave her out of it. I don't believe we've done that yet.

However, when I…

People denying power relationships does annoy me, yes, and I suspect I share that sentiment with others like Tze Ming. I doubt…

By claiming the label "New Zealander" for themselves a certain group of Pakeha are denying it to all other ethnic groups. That's an organised, aggressive and ignorant act, and resistance is to be expected.

Maybe, but I read Tze Ming's comments as conceding the label to 'a certain group of…

Perhaps you'd best re-read what she's actually saying, Logan. By claiming the label "New Zealander" for themselves a certain group of Pakeha are denying it to all other ethnic groups. That's an organised, aggressive and ignorant act, and resistance is to be expected.

redneck

I'd be really disappointed if this…

Tze Ming is of course, entitled to her ethnicity. Why does she feel she has to define mine?

Perhaps you'd best re-read what she's actually saying, Logan. By claiming the label "New Zealander" for themselves a certain group of Pakeha are denying it to all other ethnic groups. That's an…

What do you mean by illiteracy, Logan, and who's illiteracy?

Probably mine. Perhaps illiteracy is the wrong word. Maybe you'd call it apathy?

My father, and his father are/were pretty deeply connected to the Auckland area. They were comfortable enough with their own place here not to tie their place…

Also, ethnicity implies a group with an established common heritage. I don't believe that any post-1600 colonial people have had long enough to really reach that. Maybe Hispanic people, though that gets disputed.

Why? Time moves much faster now. We migrate faster, fight faster, communicate faster and integrate faster. If…

"the problem with `New Zealander' is that denying the use of the term `New Zealander' to people in New Zealand with full citizenship is pretty dodgy."

I hadn't looked at it that way. Perhaps we should use the phoentic "Nu Z'landa" and leave the proper pronunciation to mean the nationality.…

just how many are "many generations"

Not enough for you. On one side not much at all, on the other the records disappear in a mist of illiteracy.

I don't believe that ethnicity mandates national or political adherence. If your hypothetical person was of Irish ethnicity, the fact that they didn't adhere to republicanism wouldn't change that.

No no no no, because in some cases they would be British (because who's more British than a serviceman?) but in…

Tuohey (1990) analysed the labelling of Maori & Pakeha in the Otago Witness from 1851 until 1927. For a good portion of this time, Dunedin…

Surely with todays technology we don't need to use generalisations such as ethnicity. What defines you, in…

anybody who asserts that ethnicity is an entirely internal property is somewhat out of date.

I agree. I think our concepts have not kept up at all.

We're using ethnicity as a signifier for belonging to a group that is assumed to signifcantly affect the way we live. I understand…

Knuckles The Malevolent Nun

Whoa! Flashback. :)

I'm slightly appalled that no-one has mentioned the moral obligation to vote.

I'd try being a little less Knuckles The Malevolent Nun about it. :) While I regret it now, at the time I didn't feel able to cast a properly informed vote in the last local body elections in…

Ethnicity of an Northern Irish Catholic who served in HM forces?

That would depend on the ethnicity of his or her parents.

I don't believe that ethnicity mandates national or political adherence. If your hypothetical person was of Irish ethnicity, the fact that they didn't adhere to republicanism wouldn't change…

Table 16 shows languages, which provides another layer. The "Sino-Tibeto-Burman" grouping includes "Yue, Northern Chinese, Sinitic, Min and Other". Yue is noted as including Cantonese, and Northern…

crossing out "good parental" on the ballot paper and then voting yes

That is a very useful suggestion, as both a response to and commentary on the question.

It is my understanding that the one child policy only applies to the Han.

It is my understanding that the one child policy only applies to the poor han who can't afford the $10,000 fine for an extra child. Even so, it is common for some of these poor children…

"Should a smack as part of correction be a criminal offence in…

after all, I often write comments on student exam papers, knowing they are unlikely ever to see them!

That's interesting. Here academics aren't supposed to write on exam papers, only cross each page out with a pencil to prove that they've read it.

Of course, students here can get their…

But I don't know well enough what it means, and I'm not keen that any ethnic group should be forced to be indentified by someone else's label.

A good response to this is this post by Tze Ming on PA ages ago.

Yeah, that was a good blog, James. I…

You could be right. On the other hand, the more costly CIRs we have with low turn outs and a relatively high proportion of invalid votes (that high proportion indicating it was a deliberate protest action) just might help prompt parliament to change the CIR system or dump it.

See…

But without someone running a proper campaign that has a significant number spoil their ballots – at least 6 figures. A few thousand more or less writing "this is stupid" on their ballots isn't going to raise an eyebrow, let alone affect the world.

You could be right. On the…

But without someone running a proper campaign that has a significant number spoil their ballots – at least 6 figures. A few thousand more or less writing "this is stupid" on their ballots isn't going to raise an eyebrow, let alone affect the world.

What about voting 'Yes' in the…

The number of informals will be reported at the CIR.

yours sincerely
Robert Peden

Robert Peden
Chief Electoral Officer

Voting is a big deal to me – it's a precious right of citizenship. I grew up knowing that it was one of the key things that made New Zealand different – women got the vote here first*.…

I'm worried there might be more CIRs if people are seen to support the process.

But without someone running a proper campaign that has a significant number spoil their ballots – at least 6 figures. A few thousand more or less writing "this is stupid" on their ballots isn't going…

I hope you are wrong too, but you are more likely to be right if too many ballots are thrown away or spolied...

I'm worried there might be more CIRs if people are seen to support the process.

Out of curiosity Craig... would you be taking a CIR a lot more seriously if the government indicated that they would be using it for a guideline on an issue, with future legislation to be written by the end of the parliamentary term?

Are you fundamentally opposed to all CIR,…

In that case don't bother spoiling the ballot either.. ;-)

heh... But seriously, if you want to restore Section 59 of the Crimes Act you've got to pass legislation. That's not happening, and I actually take the Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition at face value that that's not…

But I'm concerned that even so the yes-votes will be so outweighed by the no-votes that it'll be ineffective, and all you will have done is lend credence to the process. Hope I'm wrong.

I hope you are wrong too, but you are more likely to be right if too…

"I'm sorry, but is it people who respond "New Zealander" who are getting confused with nationality, or is the people who wrote the question?"

I think you mean people who classified the answers, but yes, interesting question once you get down the levels.

I presume it relates to 'you have…

Also, ethnicity implies a group with an established common heritage.…

Which also points out the flaw in your argument --- Uyghurs would put Uyghur down, not Chinese (if that's how they identify), because the Census people aren't asking for nationality, but ethnicity.

That's not a flaw in my point, that was my point. In New Zealand (and China) Uyghurs would…

By using Chinese as synonymous with Han, wouldn't we be denying the use of the term 'Chinese' to Uyghurs and others with full citizenship? Pretty dodgy.

It is possible to be non-Han ethnically Chinese (see Singapore etc). Which also points out the flaw in your argument --- Uyghurs would put…

Indeed, I was always raised to think of myself as a Cantabrian.

Being Chinese is an ethnicity and a nationality (or possibly two if you ask the ROC), but you could be ethnically Chinese without having Chinese nationality.

Han, or Han Chinese, is an ethncity. You can be ethnically Han without having Chinese nationality.

By using Chinese as synonymous with Han, wouldn't…

Being Chinese is an ethnicity and a nationality (or possibly two if you ask the ROC), but you could be ethnically Chinese without having Chinese nationality.

I really don't see the problem…

11. Which ethnic group do you belong to?
mark the space or spaces that apply to you

New Zealand European
Māori
Samoan
Cook Island Maori
Tongan
Niuean
Chinese
Indian
other ( such as DUTCH, JAPANESE, TOKELAUAN ). Please state:

I'm sorry, but is it people who respond "New Zealander" who…

I would also acknowledge that there was strong championing of the 'New Zealander' issue by red-neck elements. I would resent them hijacking the term New Zealander.

And I personally resent being called a redneck, Carlos. Sorry if this offends some people (and there's certainly room for argument), but I don't…

I would also acknowledge that there was strong championing of the 'New Zealander' issue by red-neck…

How does disability fit as an ethnicity, the way it is officially defined?:

Ethnicity is the socio-cultural group or groups that people identify with or feel they belong to. An ethnic group is a group whose members have some or all of the following characteristics:…

As for the Ethnicity v. Nationality point, it is somewhat undermined by the fact that the form itself included choices that are as much 'nationalities' as New Zealander is.

I agree it does not distinguish between for example Tongans and Tongan New Zealanders born here (or is it New Zealand…

In the 2006 Census, those identifying as New Zealander:

• cover all ages, and…

But I don't know well enough what it means, and I'm not keen that any ethnic group should be forced to be indentified by someone else's label.

A good response to this is this post by Tze Ming on PA ages ago.

I think it's also worth bearing in mind…

My…

Melissa Lee didn't answer our survey but David…

(I am also blue-eyed and the palest-skinned person ever, so it's not readily apparent. :) )

many thousands of folk in the southern areas come from bloodlines like myself

Some of us in Auckland do too...

To the extent that the question assumes that a smack can form part of good parental correction, I…

I saw some unpublished analysis that showed a very high correlation between answering "New Zealander" and experiencing redness of the neck.

I don't recall seeing a "redneck" tick box on the form...

I am the product of many generations in New Zealand,and am an atheist. I feel no tie to…

In fact I've decided hat I'm going to use my vote to cancel out Bob McCoskrie's vote

Maybe we need to go further. Let's cancel his voice.

I'd think that is because
a)your family doesnt have local Maori links, and
b)they dont care to find out about what local Maori are doing etc.

Note: these comments apply…

You, personally, may not have been "exposed to Maoritanga that much" but many thousands of folk in the southern areas come from bloodlines like myself.

The Clerk of the House actually does this with regards to the primary questions submitted every sitting day for Question Time. Admittedly it's more to do…

I seem to remember that the proposed scheme wasn't that good.

And as I remember it considerably lowered the amount of the super payment as a percentage of the average wage.

I say do it because it sends a message that it IS a ridiculous question AND it has the added advatage that it gets counted.

I always thought it would be great to form the "Informal Party". No entry fee and you get a total at…

the obvious answer to me is 'It's not.' (Wasn't that the point of giving the police discretionary powers?) But I really want them to lose – so I'll be voting 'yes'.

The point of re-stating the discretionary power that already existed anyway, was to make people think that the answer…

Obviously the Clerk thought otherwise. I wonder (Graeme?) whether that decision can be challenged, or whether it's covered by parliamentary privilege?

I don't believe it would be covered by parliamentary privilege, but it's a little late to challenge it now.

They're taking over. The 'New Zealanders' I mean. As you can see, they're actively killing off the…

I think I'd be vaguely happy with the wording if the word 'good' was taken out of it. Talk about subjectivity overload.

I don't want to support the referendum makers, but I can imagine a posse of goofy people sitting around trying to create a question that distinguishes them from…

Now, I reckon the question being asked doesn't do this. It doesn't indicate whether and how the Crimes Act should…

I prefer NZ European to just putting New Zealander, for reasons I may go into if I get drunk enough. I have no problem with…

You're correct that the main reason CIRs are a bad idea is that they're bad democracy. But still: bad, waste of time ideas that cost quite a lot are naturally more concerning than bad ideas that waste time but little else.

My definition of Pakeha, involves understanding Maori protocol.

I have not seen it defined that way before, Steven. To me it means I am from New Zealand but I am not Maori. I certainly do not feel at all "European" and tauiwi seems to fit more recent migrants better.

I saw some unpublished analysis that showed a very high correlation between answering "New Zealander" and experiencing redness of the neck.

I can point you to a study that used the old census question with Pākehā, and those who used the write in options knew fewer Māori words. Not quite…

a whole lot of our compatriots not knowing the difference between nationality and ethnicity

I thought the major problem was our Government not wanting to ask a question about race.

Ummm, not sure. Both 'race' and 'ethnicity' can be problematic. But the latter as the connotation of something you…

If you're Pakeha, it's all too easy to think that there is no difference. I saw some unpublished analysis that showed a very high correlation between answering "New Zealander" and experiencing redness of the neck.

I haven't seen any such studies, but that was my anecdotal impression.

Remember that Helen Clark received a lot of criticism for not including it as part of the electoral ballot in November?

Yes, and I wasn't buying that it was logistically and financially impossible. I do however perfectly understand the political angle that this was the last thing Clark (or anyone…

I think that I heard during Question Time today that the wording could be altered if the Ref Organisers were willing. Tail end with something about a consultation with the Clerk? Anyone out there?

Not at this point in the process. Far too late for that now (without a law…

a whole lot of our compatriots not knowing the difference between nationality and ethnicity

I thought the major problem was our Government not wanting to ask a question about race.

He is seldom my favourite journalist but Sean Plonker redeemed himself on Morning Report this morning by giving Larry Baldick a right bollocking.
(Note: deliberate mis-spelling this time)

One swallow does not a summer etc.

In 1995, there was a referndum in Quebec on whether it should separate from Canada.…

Kyle, the Jedi census write-in response is possibly the closest. But that had tremendous pop cultural backing going for it (picture a three-decade, multi-billion dollar marketing campaign). And a slot marked "Other" to fill in, rather than a closed ballot form.

That's not a valid comparison.

Filling in the other…

I still think a Yes…

Actually, NBH is right – and it's a more successful example too, leading to ethnicity measurement being officially reviewed again and a whole lot of our compatriots not knowing the difference between nationality and ethnicity.

I suspect it was not knowing the difference that lead to a lot of people…

Which is when? The last couple of weeks the time slot has been occupied by an oxygen gobbling sports broadcaster...

Ah yes... Radio Live have moved Public Address Radio from five to seven, same day. Always nice when they make some effort to publicise their schedule changes, isn't it?

Yup,…

My fear with this concept is that even if the number was high enough to register it might be seen as an act against CIR per se not a comment with regard to the issue posed.

Well, I am against CIRs per se, so that works for me.

I am…

re the 'furious sleep' reference.......

Actually, I was referencing Chomsky on meaningless phrases – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously

Wikipedia says yes.

Well it certainly contributed to their eventual breakup. I assume by "Panteral correction" you mean "causing Pantera to cease producing music"?

That's the problem with this referendum. The question is too multi-faceted.

I am not, nor have I ever been, a Pantera fan.

It doesn't matter whether…

I believe smack might have a part in Panteral correction.

Wikipedia says yes.

Disclaimer: I am not, nor have I ever been, a Pantera fan.

The “Yes” vote is for those who passionately supported the original amendment, the spoiled vote is for those who also side with the “Yes” vote…

any time that anyone has paid any significant attention to the number of invalid ballots returned for anything

Kyle, the Jedi census write-in response is possibly the closest. But that had tremendous pop cultural backing going for it (picture a three-decade, multi-billion dollar marketing campaign). And a slot marked "Other"…

Great, so with the very best of intentions you're legitimating a process that is fundamentally ridiculous?

You're assuming that either not participating, or spoiling your ballot will have any positive effect.

Someone please tell me any time that anyone has paid any significant attention to the number of invalid ballots…

This does appear to be one of the stupidest questions, even worse than the…

(Sorry – I'm marking exams)

F@ck. I really wanted to spoil that ballot.

Couldn't we do both ie vote "Yes" and add a note along the lines. "This the only possible answer to an insanely stupid and devious question".

If any of my students proposed a question like this one in their research assignments, they…

But wouldn't a lot of invalid votes – I'm thinking an unusually high number here – be a sign of protest of some sort?

My fear with this concept is that even if the number was high enough to register it might be seen as an act against CIR per…

I think that takes more than a light smack.

A smack probably has no part in good Panteral correction then...

for the purposes of correcting the amount of ash on the end of my panatela

That brings back memories of spectacularly ugly wallpaper for some reason. And wine in boxes.

Yup, seems like the best option to me. It feels like a case where silence (including spoiled ballots) will be interpreted as apathay.

That's one thing I was wondering about. As I said on his blog, Dennis Welch's advice of not voting at all will contribute to a low turn…

"Should a smack as part of good parental correction not not be a criminal offence in New Zealand?"

Should income tax be reduced by 10% and public spending increased as part of a prudent and responsible economic policy?

Correction: it was "spending maintained" in the referendum on the Labour Government last year.

Yup, seems like the best option to me. It feels like a case where silence (including spoiled ballots) will be interpreted as apathay.

F@ck. I really wanted to spoil that ballot.

I prefer to think of it as being "a light smack for Panteral correction". I.e. for the purposes of correcting Pantera.

I think that takes more than a light smack. Perhaps 'for the purposes of correcting the amount of ash on the end of my panatela'.