Hard News: Vision and dumbassery
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Paul, knowing that NZ is part of 5 eyes says nothing about its capacity and what it is doing - that is exactly why we need the documents and evidence. Snowden says there is a button. Great. A button. If someone had asked (and I hope one of you Journos has the chance to ask him!) 'did you conduct a search and gather results that you know came from NZs own systems' ..plus a follow up 'how do you know it came from NZ?'- and he says gives a credible detailed answer, then we are somewhere. But he hasn't done that. He has said there is a button. We need more than this.
I hope someone asks those questions. Else it all seems rather empty to me.
Alternatively, if Key caves in without more evidence than 'Snowden says there is a button' then great. Because that would simultaneously get rid of him and prove that hes dumber than we think.
DexterX, in reply to
I hope they raid the National Pary HQ with full swat teams to bring the dangerous criminals to justice - Too funny for words really - A new definition of "stoopid".
Russ, I hope you're checking the IP addresses on these new users that have suddenly appeared...
izogi, in reply to
“I’m pretty certain that innocent people had or have nothing to worry about.”
Would you feel the same way if it were the Police vaccuming up data about your every communication and movement instead of our top-secret behind-closed-doors security agency whose only oversight is the [cough] Prime Minister?
How about if it extended, for instance, to real-time monitoring of GPS data in everyone's cars? We wouldn't even need all those pesky revenue-gathering speed cameras, because all those people breaking the law would be fined the moment they slipped over the limit. A net saving for all, except those evil law-breakers!
Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
I was wondering myself, I'd vouch for Spart tho', probably a lurker as he has known of PAS for ages innit. Doubt he'd share his Pseudonym. Plus good to read he's loud and clear as usual. :)
Well there was a Q/A time for the press at the end - that would have been a great question to ask.
Snowden had previously released a whole bunch of documents about xkeyscore and how it worked and what its capabilities were, he had already explained that in order to meet various legal strictures there were filters in place that allowed various intelligence agencies to operate under their local laws .... I don't think it's inconsistent with what he's previously said that there's a NZ check box up there with the US, UK, Aussie and Canadian ones - it's not like he's suddenly said this is a thing
Russell Brown, in reply to
Snowden says there is a button. Great. A button. If someone had asked (and I hope one of you Journos has the chance to ask him!) ‘did you conduct a search and gather results that you know came from NZs own systems’ ..plus a follow up ‘how do you know it came from NZ?’- and he says gives a credible detailed answer, then we are somewhere. But he hasn’t done that. He has said there is a button. We need more than this.
I can’t be bothered transcribing the video right now, but if you read Snowden’s Intercept article, recommend and linked to in my original post, he says this:
At the NSA I routinely came across the communications of New Zealanders in my work with a mass surveillance tool we share with GCSB, called “XKEYSCORE.” It allows total, granular access to the database of communications collected in the course of mass surveillance. It is not limited to or even used largely for the purposes of cybersecurity, as has been claimed, but is instead used primarily for reading individuals’ private email, text messages, and internet traffic. I know this because it was my full-time job in Hawaii, where I worked every day in an NSA facility with a top secret clearance.
He’s said a hell of a lot more than “there is a button”.
adam hyde, in reply to
Well it is a thing in that Key can say that the system isn't, or wasn't, wired in. Which, if I understand it correctly, is what he is saying. So we have nothing else to hang him with.
Without some more facts and stronger evidence I think the convinced will remain convinced. Don't think the rest of them will buy it tho and I think they are the ones we need to reach....
adam hyde, in reply to
"Communications of NZers"..not communications collected by NZ...there is a big difference....this info could have been collected by other systems and collected about NZers in or outside of NZ.
The dots are not yet joined....
Russell Brown, in reply to
“Communications of NZers”..not communications collected by NZ…there is a big difference….this info could have been collected by other systems and collected about NZers in or outside of NZ.
The dots are not yet joined….
There’s other evidence than Snowden’s claim for saying that X-Keyscore is shared with the GCSB. Note the pic in this comment, which comes from this 2008 NSA presentation. In the larger version, the X-KeyScore location seems to be Waihopai. And he doesn't say "other systems", he says X-Keyscore.
You just seem to be splitting hairs now. I don’t see how you can credit his other revelations around the same technologies and exclude this one.
Useful list of some things Snowden has been right about, from today's Angela Vance interview with Greenwald:
Documents released by Snowden last year revealed that the NSA intercepted the mobile phone calls of German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Australia became embroiled in a massive diplomatic row when it emerged it snooped on Indonesia president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, his wife Kristiani Herawati and government officials. The files also blew open covert interception points at Australian embassies and diplomatic posts across Asia, going as far back as 2007.
CJM, in reply to
And there was this http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/snowden-documents-indicate-nsa-has-breached-deutsche-telekom-a-991503.html
today. NSA penetration of german Telekom’s network.
i'm not splitting hairs, I'm asking questions that anyone should ask and they are legitimate questions - questions that should be put to Snowden and Greenwald since they are the only ones that seems to actually have the evidence and what they have produced so far (about NZ gathering data) is weak.
As I said to Paul, its not the converted that need to be convinced. Its the hoards out there that are not buying it, and for them it doesn't make sense, doesn't appear concrete, and feels like hearsay.
I will go back and look at this 2008 presentation, thanks for this link. I can't comment on it because I don't know this slide but will check it out.
Seriatim, in reply to
? Not what?
Craig Ranapia, in reply to
f the Swedish prosecutors simply want to interview him then please tell what’s wrong with any fucking room in London to conduct that interview?.
AndrewH: I really suggest you go do some homework, because that’s a serious misrepresentation of Swedish law and legal procedure. But a misconception Assage is perfectly happy to encourage.
As for your claim of “dubious mechanations within the Swedish legal system"… well, it’s funny how Assange’s repeated attempts to overturn the warrant both in England and Sweden have failed. Please keep trying to paint Assange as the real victim here, but it’s a shame nobody seems willing to point out that his refusal to go to Sweden and face the music actually affects two women whose day in court has been denied.
You know what’s making my bullshit alarm ring, Craig? The dog-whistling that because Assange is accused of a crime, giving him airtime to speak on something totally unrelated is equivalent to endorsing his character. Because it isn’t Craig.
Oh, nonsense. I've said what I have to say on the subject loud, clear and at a frequency non-canines can hear perfectly well and there's no point repeating it. Politicians and political movements tend to get judged by the company they keep, and like Russell I found it rather distubing the way Haare misrepresented Assange's circumstances.
If anyone’s interested, I just uploaded a copy of the Slater/Blomfield judgement to the Privacy thread. izogi had asked there about whether Dirty Politics had been part of the considerations. It wasn’t:
 Recently, some time after the hearing, Mr Blomfield has sought to produce further evidence, arising from the publication of the book Dirty Politics by Nicky Hager, and various email exchanges.
 I have declined to grant leave for the introduction of this further evidence on the basis that it is hearsay or privileged.
Seems like the company suing the nats is a patent troll. I'm torn! On the one hand... Hilarious! On the other hand... Patent trolls are the worst. Either way, national are going to lose that battle.
SteveH, in reply to
The dots are not yet joined….
So NZ is a 5 Eyes partner but doesn't contribute data on NZ citizens or use data on NZ citizens provided by the other partners to spy on its own citizens by proxy. And the other countries happily go along with this because the input of the spy agencies of this country with half the population of New York is just so damn valuable. If you believe that then perhaps I could interest you in this fine bridge I happen to have for sale. It's simply not plausible.
AndrewH, in reply to
Thanks Stephen, I can accept the concerns around avoiding triggering material, and although I don't particularly agree with what seems to be the general consensus around Assange, I've no wish to continue the argument.
OTOH, if those are the ground rules, then I suggest Craig avoids rocking that particular snark. That Dotcom is tone deaf to NZ sensibilities is a truism I would've thought. The shit about Assange's paranoia etc is over the line.
Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Oh ffs if you have a tune that works for what now seems like everyone , they are perfectly entitled to protect it and if you gotta deal with the whole world, there will be several times it occurs. Lil' old NZ Govt has stolen it and has said coincidence meant they changed it, and now Joyce says they removed it and now it's all about some money. Piss off.The National supporters are out in force tonight. Worried are we?
Rochelle, in reply to
My memory of the Julian Assange case is that the accusers were two women who worked in his office, were willing sexual partners, but requested the use of a condom, and Julian did not respect this request. So assault of a sort.. but i would not call this rape.
Isn't XKeyscore basically the search interface, not the collection one? I believe that's what people here are saying. Being able to filter a search doesn't prove where the content was collected.
I personally believe at least some of it was collected here, but that's not enough to nail the slippery Key when he claims it's just from targeted not mass 'surveillance' (which in spy circles means content spying not metadata spying, we're told). We need someone really sharp on these things to sit him down and keep at him until they get past the deliberate evasiveness and lying.
nzlemming, in reply to
Seems like the company suing the nats is a patent troll. I’m torn! On the one hand… Hilarious! On the other hand… Patent trolls are the worst. Either way, national are going to lose that battle.
That's not patent trolling. That's copyright enforcement by the publisher. Patent trolling is acquiring patents and then suing people you claim are infringing those patents in order to generate a revenue stream. Big difference.
nzlemming, in reply to
Isn’t XKeyscore basically the search interface, not the collection one? I believe that’s what Mr Spart is saying. Being able to filter a search doesn’t prove where the content was collected.
You can't filter what's not there. When Snowden explained it last night, it was pretty clear that he, as an analyst, expected to get into all of his target's email etc using XKEYSCORE.
And while I'm at it. People are innocent until proven guilty. If someone out of all the places on Earth can't go and interview Assange, that is their shit. Allegations are not being pursued and for why? No excuses are acceptable. But I will give that man the benefit of doubt especially because shitloads of other authorities aren't bothered to travel to talk to him. He doesn't need to go anywhere. They need to go to him. Plus I give benefit of the doubt to all accused without fair hearing. Hell, I even give time to listen to incarcerated because not all of those should be there either. I'm glad for pro bonos like Amsterdam. Human Rights people with empathy, with compassion for those without money. Every time National make excuses ,they claim money is a motive. For me, it's never about money.
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