Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Te Qaeda and the God Squad

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  • Russell Brown,

    Quote us something then.

    I've been getting the same impression as Andrew: the message seems to be how dare you call us terrorists, we can't be.

    There is always debate around how the word terrorist is used, because it is a contentious term. Maybe we have some home-grown terrorists, maybe we don't. I don't think we should be throwing the term around lightly.

    I'd be interested to know whether the police themselves have called any of those arrested "terrorists". I rather strongly suspect they haven't, but I could be wrong.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Andrew Paul Wood,

    Well Kowhai, how about Moana Jackson above - and it does seen to be a murky tenor coming out of the Maori Party.
    And to be fair, I should also have added "I can't be a terrorist, I'm a middle class centre-left Pakeha" and "I can't be a terrorist, I'm crusading for the environment". I apologise for the unintentionally racist slant.

    Actually, I have been gleefully awaiting the day some nation or other uses antiterrorim legislation against Greenpeace the next time they do something willfully obnoxious to make a point, just to see if it will stick under international law. I recall Greenpeace blocking the entrance to some port or other to prevent a shipment of coal - which must have been lovely for the folks desirous of electricity and the other ships.

    Christchurch • Since Jan 2007 • 175 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Agreed Stephen - the movement hasn't solidified yet and very much a case of push your own barrow.
    Rangitira are required to weave the various groups together.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • kmont,

    I've been getting the same impression as Andrew: the message seem to be how dare you call us terrorists, we can't be.

    Well, I haven't been watching all the coverage so I don't know about that. I can definitely understand why Maori, more than others could feel tarred with the "terrorist" brush though. Not a minor thing. A lot people wont be able to distinguish what comes from the police, the media or the government.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • kmont,

    Andrew, gotta go the sunshine is calling. as far as

    Well Kowhai, how about Moana Jackson above - and it does seen to be a murky tenor coming out of the Maori Party.

    goes, I don't know. I am on the fence. I think it radical yes, but there is some truth in there if you ask me.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Andrew, re Jackson: consider his audience.

    He said "We must not define our people as terrorists. We might not agree with their methods but there's no place for words like rebel, heathen or savage."

    Now I could be wrong, but Jackson is a lawyer, and a clever cookie who wouldn't parse his utterances carefully.

    He didn't say "they are not terrorists." He said not to use that word, or other negative words. And he said that to a Maori party meeting on a marae: in other words, he wasn't chastising the news media, he was talking to his political peers about strategy.

    I guess I agree with you that Jackson could be hard up against the facts, when they come out; but I don't think that's an example of panties in a twist, it's an injunction to his audience to get control of the discourse.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    I recall Greenpeace blocking the entrance to some port or other to prevent a shipment of coal - which must have been lovely for the folks desirous of electricity and the other ships.

    Maybe they had just read this:

    The future of humanity has been put at risk by a failure to address environmental problems including climate change, species extinction and a growing human population, according to a new UN report.

    and decided desperate times needed desperate measures.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/oct/26/climatechange

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • Andrew Paul Wood,

    There is a difference between action and grandstanding. I have never yet heard of Greenpeace putting their enormous resources to the task of doing something useful like developing renewable energy sources for the third world. Rather, it remains a sort of ecologically-minded Outward Bound to soothe the guilt of the middle classes of the first world.

    Christchurch • Since Jan 2007 • 175 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Thanks for your support, RB, Kowhai, Craig, etc.

    I'm considering lodging a complaint with the Herald. A question: Does the NZH issue more than one (print) edition during any given day, and if so, how does one identify the difference?

    I can get copies from the local library, I suppose, but how do I know whether I've checked all published versions?

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    There is a difference between action and grandstanding. I have never yet heard of Greenpeace putting their enormous resources to the task of doing something useful like developing renewable energy sources for the third world

    Perhaps 'advocating' describes them better than 'grandstanding'.

    Here's an example of the practical application of their philosophy.

    Sometimes you just have to show the world how it's done. Greenfreeze is Greenpeace's market proven, environmentally friendly, refrigeration technology. The SolarChill project aims to create a stand-alone solar powered refrigerator that not only preserves food, but also meets the World Health Organization's standards for vaccine storage.

    http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/climate-change/solutions/solar_chill

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    In the tradition of you show me yours I'll show you mine he's what the anti-terror heros are up to in blighty.

    Met chief 'will not quit' over de Menezes

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2200640,00.html

    The commissioner has told friends and colleagues that, irrespective of the jury's verdict concerning the death of the 27-year-old Brazilian, he will not be offering his resignation.

    Len Duval, chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority, said last week that he believed there was an attempt to destabilise Blair and condemned the 'spiteful' hate campaign seemingly concocted to oust him from office. (Rickards?)

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    A lot people wont be able to distinguish what comes from the police, the media or the government.

    Mostly because the majority of what they hear from the Police and the Government is filtered and presented (and distorted) by the media.
    In this particular case, there's very little the Police are permitted to say, and the papers are putting words in their mouths quite flagrantly.

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    You can't call someone a "terror accused" unless and until they've actually been accused of terrorism charges. The Herald just did anyway. ...
    I'd be interested to know whether the police themselves have called any of those arrested "terrorists". I rather strongly suspect they haven't, but I could be wrong.

    I get that everyone is innocent until/unless proven guilty, and that they haven't (yet) been charged under the Terrorism Act but ...

    Why blame the media for labelling them as they have when clearly the Police said from the outset that we've arrested these people on Firearms charges, and we're going to put our evidence in front of the AG to see if further charges under the Terrorism Act can be laid. The Police often arrest ppl on lesser charges before charging them with higher crimes.

    But as I said many pages ago: I think there will much egg on the Police's face and at best we'll see 4 ppl convicted of firearms offences - and that's it.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Popped onto Tumeke & Chris Trotter (?) linked this

    http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/74018/index.php

    For generations, Maori have fought for their rights and their autonomy in staunch but nonviolent ways. With incredible patience they have abstained from the violent use force, despite constant aggressive reinvasion of their independent communities and confiscation of the taonga, such as the recent case of the foreshore and seabed. When armed police threatened their elders and children with guns last week, Tuhoe remained stubbornly peaceful, despite all the paramilitary training, and the hatred for whitey they have supposedly been whipped into up in the bush in Urewera.

    As for the greeny lefties people claim are plotting sedition with them, both Maori and pakeha; the occupiers of Waimangaroa from Save Happy Valley, the Peace Action Wellington crew, the anarchist librarian, Omar Hamed (the Harry Potter of Aotearoa activism), docospotter Rongomai Bailey and the rest of the Kotahi Te Ao video crew; they are about as threatening as the Wombles.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    There is a difference between action and grandstanding. I have never yet heard of Greenpeace putting their enormous resources to the task of doing something useful like developing renewable energy sources for the third world. Rather, it remains a sort of ecologically-minded Outward Bound to soothe the guilt of the middle classes of the first world.

    I'm not sure if anyone working at Greenpeace would agree with the massive resources bit. Given how they scrape together money and how a lot of their work is done with volunteers. Perhaps a better target for your campaign of 'renewable energy for the third world' would be BP or Mobil or something. I hear they turn over a fair bit, and have some expertise in the field of energy.

    Personally I think the world is a better place as a result of changes that Greenpeace have pushed. End to nuclear testing in the Pacific, anti-whaling, anti-drift net fishing, anti-illegal logging, climate change awareness. Not just them of course, but they helped.

    But if they're not for you, there's probably someone else out there doing something more your style. Why rag on them just because it's not your cup of tea? It's not like they're using your tax dollars or anything.

    Personally I don't like soccer. Never enough goals, and a lot of fluffing around passing the ball, too slow for me. But if millions of people around the world want to play, good luck to them.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    Why blame the media for labeling them as they have when...

    Er, I've been painting myself into a bit of a pedantic corner tonight. What I meant to say was that whilst I don't at all condone the media calling people terrorists (before conviction), I wonder why the focus is on the media when it's the Police who are talking about possible charges under the Terrorism Act.
    Our media are only doing what other media (particularly the US) have done when presented with easy copy by 'the Authorities'. It's almost Pavlovian.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    I'm lurching back to Political conspiracy with Helens convicting the 17 without a trial.

    PM: activists 'trained to use napalm'
    "I find it absolutely extraordinary that the Maori Party on the one hand is demanding police prosecute Trevor Mallard for assault and on the other is claiming people, who at the very least have illicitly used firearms, constructed molotov cocktails and trained themselves in how to use napalm, should not be charged," Clark said.

    What of David Collins?
    Chair of the ACC - that cultures healthy?

    Qualified?
    "He has specialised in health law and has appeared in relation to this and other matters." Perfeck!

    But in light of recent political shananagans this doesn't ring true as it once might have.-
    "The Solicitor-General is appointed by the Governor-General on the advice of the Attorney-General. The State Services Commissioner was asked to manage the recruitment process in order to ensure a merit-based and professional process."

    http://lawfuel.com/show-release.asp?ID=6966

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    Our media are only doing what other media (particularly the US) have done when presented with easy copy by 'the Authorities'. It's almost Pavlovian.

    And if everybody else's media jumped off a cliff, you'd expect our media to as well?
    Just because the US seem to accept the rabid meanderings of Fox News and the National Enquirer et al, that doesn't mean that we should allow our media to sink to the same level. Remember, the price of freedom (of the press) is eternal vigilance - so keep an eye on the bastards.

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    And if everybody else's media jumped off a cliff, you'd expect our media to as well?

    Heh heh, well yes, actually. And on the way down you'd hear them asking eachother: "Where's the storeyyyyyyyyy???"

    Your points are correct but nostalgic. The media have already gone to hell in a handbasket, and are wondering if the temperature has anything to do with global warming.

    Talkin' bout MSM of course, which is why internetting is now so popular.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Ironically, four media organisations are going to the High Court to try and get more court proceedings made public: in the first instance, the names of the accused -- which defence lawyers are opposing.

    The Commonwealth Press Union is also complaining about the closing of the court in Rotorua last week. I'd assumed that it was the cops doing the suppression, but the implication of the Radio NZ story seemed to be that it was the defence, so I'm not sure now.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Jeez Michael, that was an amazingly selective bit of quoting there. here's the full profile, lest anyone think the Solictor General is a bunny:

    Dr David Collins was appointed QC in 2000. He has extensive experience as a trial lawyer, both as defence counsel and since 2000 as prosecutor. This has included acting as counsel in complex trials with regular appearances in all Courts, including seven Privy Council appearances. He has specialised in health law and has appeared in relation to this and other matters.

    He is currently a member of the Wellington Crown Prosecution Panel, Chair of the ACC, Chair of the Health Practitioners Disciplinary Panel, and an Honorary Fellow of the Victoria University Law School. He was a member of the Board of Sport and Recreation New Zealand from 2002 until this year, and a trustee of the Todd Foundation from 2003 to 2005. Dr Collins was also President of the Wellington District Law Society in 2001.

    "Dr Collins is an industrious and successful barrister who has made valuable contributions to the profession through the Law Society, and also in public life. His experiences in the courts, in professional leadership and on the boards of Crown agencies are directly relevant to the Solicitor-General and Chief Executive role," Dr Cullen said.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    Though it was I that Russell quoted in his Hard News: Moron y Moron piece ("either vaguely threatening or threateningly vague"), I actually have softened my opinion on Tamati Kruger in the Sunday interview.

    For a start, he was probably just trying to answer as well as he could, in the face of a series of stupid questions. He might as well have said "How the hell am I supposed to answer that? Am I a soothsayer?". I mean, no possible outcome can be discounted, can it. Which is effectively what he said.

    I doubt he was trying to be threatening, especially since Chaz Doherty basically answered the same questions with much more direct and moderate responses.

    BTW what's with all these innocuous surnames? Doherty? Kruger? Hardly the stuff of revolutionary legend. Oh.. I answered my own question.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 355 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Russell don't tell me he's on the Labour Party list as well :p

    At first glance Dr Wayne Mapp CV is impressive too.
    http://www.national.org.nz/Bio.aspx?Id=31

    So you're on board with Helens driving this circus I take it?

    You cropped the last two paragraphs, I only state this because that was my last & prob most meaningful quote.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    So you're on board with Helens driving this circus I take it?

    No, it just struck me that your reflexive response on the matter passing to our senior non-political law official was to question his credibility. Unfairly, in my view.

    Clark's buggered her admirable STFU record, especially in broaching the napalm thing, but I don't doubt that the police have evidence that they regard as compelling that these things happened.

    I'll wait to see how it washes up in court.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison,

    Clark's buggered her admirable STFU record

    in fairness she was responding to the Maori Party's attacks which included a deliberate misrepresentation of how the relationship between the govt and police works. I'm quite happy she took them to task over it.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

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