Hard News: So far from trivial
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I don't know about 'sharing blame' with script writers robbery. He makes his own choices, including what comes out of his mouth by way of explanation/apology. If what is reported is true he should have made his way down to the police station.
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Sacha, I don't get the link between rugby culture (what the clip shows is blokey culture with some rugby players involved talking about tight pockets and beer) and what Veitch did to his ex-partner. Have any of the rugby players there beaten women?
You are drawing a random bow. Maybe we should all have a go at the Flight of the Conchords latest song and video but I haven't heard boo about it. Maybe it's because they don't play rugby.
Or perhaps have a go at Grand Theft Auto in relation to the death of the police officer yesterday.
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we've got a high rate of domestic violence as a country, and there will be people on this board reading or speaking that are involved on both sides of it.
No shit.
But cracking someone's vertebrae and putting them in a wheelchair? Not the same as throwing a teaspoon at someone across the kitchen. Neither are good: one is significantly worse than the other. I bet most of us could freak out and throw a teaspoon, but I don't think most of us could/would put our partner in a wheelchair when we 'lashed out'.
Your implication that we're all capable of doing what Veitch did is not only disturbing: it's minimising the nature of the crime. Which is yet another way domestic violence has been historically denied or trivialised.
Again: MEH.
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taking it back from the script written part though, how would you have handled the actual event though?
Most people, having committed a serious crime, would rationally try to avoid taking responsibility for that, whether it's by covering up the offence or minimising their role in it. That's not the right question, though.
The right question is what would you expect someone to do about a situation like that in order to retain your respect. I'm not sure if it's possible. People I respect don't do that sort of thing in the first place. Perhaps if they accept responsibility for it (without being forced to), work towards understanding what they did wrong, make it impossible for them to do something like that again, and do something about stopping other people from either committing violence or getting away with it, that's a start. Those guys in the violence ads have the right idea. "I understand the impact I had on X's life and there's nothing I can do to undo things, but I want to become part of the solution rather than part of the problem from hereon in", rather than "I didn't mean it, it was the medication." Hell, even Earl Hickey has the right idea.
It's not easy - the cognitive dissonance between "I am a good person" and "Good people don't commit serious assaults" tends to generate "unless they have a good reason."
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For me, the most unsettling part of the discussions has been the way we talk about the victim, all the "should"s and assumptions about power - she should have gone to the Police, she signed the confidentiality agreement because Veitch made her, she should have spoken out, and so on
Veitch's actions and role in this are very black and white. He did an inexcusably wrong thing, he was the one who used his strength to overpower and hurt someone.
But we shouldn't use that utter wrongness to rob her of power when we talk about the issue.
It is clear that, in the minutes in which she lay on the floor while he kicked her, she was without power. We can hope that in the intervening years she has regained that power, that she is now a strong and capable woman who can make decisions for herself. We don't know when that occurred, maybe the moment she wasn't physically overpowered, maybe not for many years.
Going to the Police is not easy (or compulsory). I would love for her to live in a society where it was an easy simple thing to do without painful consequences for the victim, but she doesn't. Maybe she was psychologically overpowered by Veitch and didn't talk to the Police out of fear, but maybe she made her own powerful decision about what was the best action for her given her limited options.
Maybe she carefully weighed up her options about the confidentiality agreement and decided what was best for her. Maybe she has been careful about who she has told because she has recognised the pain and shame our society would lay on her.
Is there a way to discuss the issue laying the blame with Veitch, but also without robbing her of her power and strength by writing as if she was no more than a puppet he controlled?
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Am I the only one feeling sorry for Craig Dowd?
I've never listened to Dowd and wouldn't put much weight on his opinion, but equally I can't recall the great works of de Villiers.
Rather than racist, de Villiers 70kgs is comical in comparison to the size of the players around him, especially as it's the frontrow that he has an issue with.
de Villiers has taken over from White, who was great (better than our coach anyway) and de Villiers hasn't done anything except play with children (age grade teams).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_de_VilliersLooks political, but that's a Sth African issue. He is comical in size & so I don't see calling him a puppet racist. I suppose it comes down to if Dowd has a history of making other comments like this, so you guys in AKL might shed some light here?
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Yamis, I don't have time to go into detail about the links between rugby and its surrounding culture in this country which includes a lot about how men relate to women (note comments about girlfriends at end of that brief clip).
That's all well established academic knowledge by now, but it's more subtle than saying a game makes a person act a certain way. It's not actually about the game anyway but the "blokey" norms around it. I get a sense you might first need more background understanding about how people, cultures and behaviours relate. Anyway, perhaps others can chip in. -
I get a sense you might first need more background understanding about how people, cultures and behaviours relate.
Don't worry about me. I know how the bigger picture stuff works. But having first hand experience of
a) rugby and league clubs over many years
and
b) the behaviour of many males who have never set foot near oneI still think it often gets a lot overblown.
For many thousands of young people sports clubs (particularly rugby in this country) have helped sort them out not ruined them and it's unhelpful to throw the blame on specific parts of society and yet not accept Veitch's own personal excuses to do with work, stress, exhaustion, medication...
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Your implication that we're all capable of doing what Veitch did is not only disturbing: it's minimising the nature of the crime.
Danielle: It would be naive to dispute that all people are ultimately capable of hitting out to a lesser or greater degree. Can you not imagine that any person in extremis would not hit out? I would if to defend my wife or children. If so the provocation and response becomes a matter of degree.
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It would be naive to dispute that all people are ultimately capable of hitting out to a lesser or greater degree.
Which I also said. In the same post you're quoting. Paragraph above. The thing about the teaspoon. Remember?
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Danielle & Ian (wow :),
One of the challenges for me thinking about domestic violence is how much size and strength matters.
I'm 5'2", in every relationship I've ever been in an equal "lashing out" by me and my partner would have done more damage to me than to them. Every child I've ever looked after has been littler than me, an equal "lashing out" would have done more damage to them than to me.
So we have a situation where, as a gross generalisation, men will do more damage when they hit women than vice versa. In addition men, potentially, are wired to be more physically aggressive than women and are brought up in a society which condones/encourages physical aggression in men.
But, and it's a big but, with physical violence we are responsible for the outcome of our actions not just thei intent.
So while both men and women must work to manage their behaviour so they don't hurt their partners, the average straight man must, in some sense, work harder than the average straight woman. He has to manage both the much greater likelihood he has of doing damage if he does hit her, and physiological and societal reasons for being more likely to hit her in the first place.
Whether that's "fair" or not, it's real.
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Danielle: Yes I got that. But would you (anyone) never go further than throw a teaspoon? Not to say it is OK before you suggest that it is.(I have by the way never hit a woman in spite of having been attacked physically/verbally but did sometimes smack my kids. Shame)
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which condones/encourages physical aggression in men.
If you are referring to sport (where it is legal to be aggressive but with relatively clearly defined boundaries) then you are correct but on the otherhand I can't think of a sport that women don't also compete in Anita.
You name it, rugby, league, boxing, ... ... ... all have female competitors as well.
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So while both men and women must work to manage their behaviour so they don't hurt their partners, the average straight man must, in some sense, work harder than the average straight woman. He has to manage both the much greater likelihood he has of doing damage if he does hit her, and physiological and societal reasons for being more likely to hit her in the first place.
Good stuff Anita. Although the restraint can be trying. (By the way I think you might be about the same size as Veitch.)
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That's all well established academic knowledge by now, but it's more subtle than saying a game makes a person act a certain way. It's not actually about the game anyway but the "blokey" norms around it. I get a sense you might first need more background understanding about how people, cultures and behaviours relate. Anyway, perhaps others can chip in.
I agree with Yamis, actually. You're making a characterisation that may well apply in many cases, but I don't think it's endemic or inseparable from the culture. It might be "well established academic knowledge", but it's also a generalisation based on what you've read.
My friend Tracey Nelson (a bug scientist by day) moves easily in rugby culture -- coaching kids, devising her own statistical analysis, radio commentary, putting the hard questions at AB press conferences -- because she knows more about the game than most of the men she meets. Also, no one would mess with Tracey anyway ...
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Although the restraint can be trying.
That actually sounds like you're looking for sympathy for the terrible burden of not having committed domestic violence. No wonder Deborah's getting annoyed.
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I don't think it's endemic or inseparable from the culture
It's more true of elite level like the ABs where the team loyalty exaggerates some of the worse features, but it's hardly irrelevant here.
I agree with Yamis' point that team sport is an important part of the upbringing of most Kiwi kids. I do question whether the moral code that used to be integral to sport has eroded in favour of winning at all costs - again, more at the elite level where it is more culturally prominent.
I need to emphasise I'm talking about the thuggish end of sports culture here - hence saying "thugby" (not because I'm writing for a tabloid). I'm talking about the big meta-stories and themes that build around rugby over time and through media, not the day to day operation of the sport or the individuals who are in it.
I'm not interested in quoting studies linking sports, media and violence. They're useful alongside other more personal forms of evidence, and they can help minimise the effects of cultural dissonance someone mentioned above.
Any of this stuff involves generalisations based on our experiences, reading and conversations. The real challenge is teasing out how we relate to those, and what it means for individuals and groups we care about. What we each believe is important in life is central to that, and I think we're seeing that reflected here.
The larger conversation now in New Zealand about violence seems to be part of us maturing as a nation. It is a privilege for me to be here as thoughts are shared. Thank you all for creating the space for the conversation.
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Ian,
Although the restraint can be trying
I think everyone finds it hard, from time to time, to be the person they want to be. I think our honour and self respect comes in large part from our success (or otherwise) at the hardest parts of that series of challenges.
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Headline - "Sense of hostility looms over return test":
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/4/story.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10521111&pnum=0Includes:
There is a sense of brutality and certainly hostility about this return test...
...many of the 29,000 at Carisbrook and many others who tune in to broadcasts will do so in anticipation of some violence.
Call it what you like, legalised mayhem or strongarm tactics, but part of the fascination is to see how close to the edge teams take it and how the officials will deal with it. -
Which is not to say I won't be watching the game tonight...
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B. Jones
That actually sounds like you're looking for sympathy for the terrible burden of not having committed domestic violence. No wonder Deborah's getting annoyed.
What rubbish. I included a little self-disclosure with some fear that someone might attack for it. I wrote it make clear that I do know about provocation, and to negate that some have taken me to be in favour of violence. Not so!
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Who is Deborah?
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Makes it all the more compelling aye Sacha ;)
I'll be off to my parents house to watch. Peeking on the Warriors who are on at the same time as well.
I don't know if we are any better or worse in terms of the violence and glorifying it on the sports field. In fact I take that back. There is certainly LESS of it in sport. Fans are frequently lamenting the fact that league and rugby in particular have become so clean. My father went to a senior league game recently and couldn't believe how clean it has become. When he was playing the game was constant filth, his nose was broken numerous times, forearms, stiff arms, car windscreens smashed after games.... I can find clips on youtube of games played in the 50s and 60s where they moved from one fight to the next. Some of the most vicious in history happened decades ago.
It seems as if it's the reporting and talk of games that may have become more inflammatory because there's sod all taking place on the field.
Remember rucking has been outlawed, State of Origin rarely now has a punch thrown, all in brawls seem a thing of the past. Even the AB v SA incident in the first test involved nothing more than a pushing match.
Something I tend to lament and celebrate depending what mood I'm in.
Peace out.
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I meant Danielle, and apologies to both Deborah and Danielle for stuffing that up.
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male violence against women, how our charming meathead thugby culture relates to that, the influence of money on justice, and public vs private spheres colliding in the glare of media.e relates to that, the influence of money on justice, and public vs private spheres colliding in the glare of media.
I like the way you've put this. I'll always remember Matthew Ridge saying "I've brought Nicky" when asked on one of those puerile reality shows what he had brought along to share. It was years ago now and I could never make my sons understand my utter distaste. That sort of blokey humour (according to Michelle Hewitson's interview with Rick Salizzo, Ellis made a "the PM is a man" joke on Sportcafe this week) is endemic to those blokes: Veitch, Ellis and Ridge.
However, it doesn't follow that Veitch is vicious man. I'm with Robbery. The facts as reported look very very bad - it looks as if he committed a horrendous crime and thought he could get away with it, marry a beautiful blonde young heiress and keep his high paid jobs. But we weren't there. We haven't heard what his former partner has to say. Life is complex.
I don't think you can take one case for which you know only second hand info and slot it into the wife-beater model right away.
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