and don't accept the conclusion of your analysis, if that is the word you want to use to describe what you have embarked on here.

Since I've made no real conclusions about The Very Public Angst of Veitch, I think you're perhaps mixing me up with someone else in the…

but now they tend to roll out thick and fast like elephant turds.

Heh. That's now my online image of the week.

You don't think that it could be as simple, Michael, as with all forums, of reasonably likeminded people having discussions on which there is a common meeting of the minds at some points along the way?

It could well be that Jackie, but I'm not sure if there is any…

You don't know whether he is sorry or not.

There are all sorts of things none of us 100% know about other people, since mind-reading is fairly uncommon. So, instead of inventing mind-reading, which might take a while and get expensive, we tend to do other stuff. Like... analyse what…

We were analysing his words and actions, not his 'demeanour'

You don't know whether he is sorry or not.

even Craig doesn't bite that much......

The dude's a freakin pit-bull :) Speshly if you you generalise just a wee bit..

I know! How about a thread where only those with less than 20 posts can comment...they can dip their toes without the sharks circling-jerking

A circle-jerk?

Crickey! I realise you made that comment after 8 30 pm, but perhaps you ought to consider some sort of parental advisory-type warning. Some of us are young and impressionable. Well, impressionable anyway.

On a related note, it's good to see that the likes of the CCD are…

Of course it is a bit of a closed circle (most things ossify a bit over time) but there are…

Actually the encouragement of fighting in ice hockey is one of the things I dislike the most about the sport.

I stand corrected.

A circle-jerk?

Kyle is an Anaheim supporter, I'm sure he'd have more than a little to say in defence of the institution of the hockey fight. That doesn't make the quote he gave us any less scary.

Actually the encouragement of fighting in ice hockey is one of the things I dislike…

It doesn't seem to matter what the topic is or who authored it but I seem to keep encountering…

My 'Sunday School' was on Saturday after/during Rugby. It was CCD and I still don't know what that means.

Confraternity of Christian Doctrine:)
I remember as a child asking the Sunday school teacher if she could tell me where the page numbers were as I was having difficulty locating them…

Given that some sports are EXTREMELY physical in nature ie, union, league, ice hockey, american football to name a few the amount of full on violence is incredibly low. To…

Also, Kyle: 'leave her kid in Sunday school getting gayer by the day'. Wow. That's almost a hilarious pisstake of someone being a dick. Except it's serious.

My guess is that it was due to the public statements of regret afterwards that seemed so devoid of any … regret.

My understanding of the evidence in this area is that demeanour based assesments of credibility can be unreliable.

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/Supreme_Court/ll_sc.nsf/pages/SCO_mcclellan020806

A US study published earlier this year noted that…

_count my family OUT! Count almost all of my friends & their families OUT! Especially, COUNT ME OUT!

What a truly horrifying statement from a so-called sportsperson.

Most people have a wondering questing hopeful and innately kind inner…

An acquaintance just posted the following in an ice hockey forum after I made a comment about two high school teams that had an all-in fight a few weeks ago. His post:

We need to stop being wusses and…

Finally, I was waiting all thread for someone to ask, Deborah – and Rob is in this instance correct that I’m not eligible for your team. Strong off-field supporter, is all.

Dammit. Now I feel the need to go re-read some of your posts and see if they come out…

Finally, I was waiting all thread for someone to ask, Deborah – and Rob is in this instance correct that I’m not eligible for your team.

But it's a very inclusive team, Sacha...

My bad!

I reckon that reading and contributing here is a good use of my limited time…

I am not getting otherwise involved with robbery debates *at all* but may I say how much I appreciate the responses of Sacha, Deborah, Jackie & others? And how much I really hope that robbery's penultimate phrase is a promise for this thread? Kia ora tatou-

The bolding of 'but' is…

I've noted a degree of bullying in your comments to me, to WH, and a few others, I'm not up for that.

But sanctimonious comments like that bring me right to the brink.…

I just don't have the patience to go through every word time and time again in the hope that it has sunk in this time.

patience or clarity. either or. what makes you think your words are gold and that others must let them sink in?
I've noted a degree…

Just it going to court passes the "justice takes its course" for me.

I agree but it hasn't got there yet...

I have been watching this thread and the whole issue has been "triggering" for me. I think Vietch not appearing to take responsibility has been one of the worst…

My guess is that it was due to the public statements of regret afterwards that seemed so devoid of any … regret.

Well that’s the bit that got me anyway.

ditto. We even expect teenagers to own up to what they have done to all those affected at restorative meetings…

Rob, could you possibly look for a middle ground between needling other participants and having a persecution complex?

sure, if you can try and read an element of good natured humor into at least some of my posts. I've been pretty forgiving about some fairly dubious comments in my direction…

I'm not quite sure why I was so enraged by this case

My guess is that it was due to the public statements of regret afterwards that seemed so devoid of any … regret.

Well that’s the bit that got me anyway.

but you've obviously got time on your hands, I thought I was doing you a favour, helping you pass the time.

Rob, could you possibly look for a middle ground between needling other participants and having a persecution complex?

Arrggh ...

and stop wasting my time.

but you've obviously got time on your hands, I thought I was doing you a favour, helping you pass the time.

and reading your one sentence in its whole it could easily be read to mean exactly what I said in 2 parts.

but denial…

Not OK means Not OK. You're the one who isn't getting that.

One of us is confused about who is not getting what.

you have split a complete sentence into two parts

which bit?

Veitch is the "least interesting part of the incident"? WTF? I'm sorry, I just don't get that at all.

in that the individual that is tony veitch alone is a small part of the bigger picture.
that would be celebrity, media, the wider context of violence in new zealand that…

and so on and so on ad freaking nauseam.

:) what'd I say?
come on D, can't we all just get along, lets be friends.

to be honest I wasn't even thinking of you. I was chatting with sasha, in my mind you're the wedding dress thread

ps you should…

but Robbery you seem to keep missing the bit where the commenters who are appalled at Veitch's lack of sincere remorse point that out (showing they do believe in redemption).

no I'm reading that, but i think veitch is the least interesting part of the incident. he's a sports reader…

Until we hear him clearly acknowledge that he harmed her, it's all just smoke.

that's one good point

I'm happy to leave it to a court process (agree with you on that now that we know there may be one), but there is well-funded deliberate spin going on in the…

I've seen a lot of concern that he isn't actually taking responsibility for what he's done,

Heh, even Diana Wichtel took him to task on this count in her Listener TV review.

if you're american you can discuss issues of american politics without being unpatriotic but that doesn't stop people from throwing a "you hate america" into a discussion in an attempt to divert it.

That comparison is not at all apt. I really resent this lameassed (sorry Jackie!) implication you keep…

Not OK means Not OK. You're the one who isn't getting that.

It's kind of like the unpatriotic argument though. if you're american you can discuss issues of american politics without being unpatriotic but that doesn't stop people from throwing a "you hate america" into a discussion in an attempt…

Endless repetition is not going to turn that into a valid criticism.

It's already a "valid" criticism, WH – is just the acknowledgement of that from some that is still lacking. Not OK means Not OK. You're the one who isn't getting that.

Thanks, Julie. I like the way your commenter Anna McM put it

Wellington owes Dunedin for us letting her go up there. There were plots to prevent y'know.

Even if it is true, it doesn't make the assault any less horrible.

who said anything about less horrible, I said spicy.
also see WH post above yours. you can't see my original post cos apparently i said something controversial although I was merely commenting on a legitimate newspaper article…

The tone of his writing around the time of those verdicts was along the lines of "oh, isn't this a lot…

I see no ones interested in the other gossip re the valentines day visit 2 weeks later. that was from an unnamed source, printed in a newspaper, so it must be true.

Even if it is true, it doesn't make the assault any less horrible.

I see what they're trying…

Why can't these people bring themselves to condemn an act of violence against a woman lying on the floor?

Endless repetition is not going to turn that into a valid criticism. Stop circling the bandwagons.

At some point the denunciation of celebrity offending becomes self-gratification, conjecture and trial by media.…

Leg Break will know, he can consult his scrapebook.

I think it was along the lines of them winding each other up and Veitch throwing one and…

usually there was some escalation and other lower level violence first

I wonder how he treated pets?

If Veitch is trying to reform himself, being surrounded by apologist turds like Holmes won't be helping much.

I think those who want some "balance" need to reflect that Tony is not doing himself any favours long term…

and enough people committing the effort needed to keep a conversation going.

I was thinking bored people with nothing better to do than talk about the crimes of famous people but i like the sound of yours better.

You know, the issue that has most touched the PA nerve

hmm,…

Still, a wins a win.

Please ignore what I just wrote.

Please.

Shep, Veitch is mortgaged up pretty hard going by an article in the DomPost the other day. $20,000 a month to make payments. He earnt 700,000…

Allegedly, that one's been going round for a while.

But if you're that short, and talk that fast I guess it's inevitable.

I was pretty impressed by Hewitts tearful epiphany in Queenstown, but wrong of me to expect all public figures to prostrate themselves in…

Is that a record?

You know, the issue that has most touched the PA nerve?

Wil Holmes be called as some kind of character ref?

The Cops are following up the complaint. This is as good as it gets without Veitch reaching an epiphany and it seems clear he hasn't.

Hey Shep, ( I like how your name suggests one may speak casually)I really do think that for anyone to behave in the manner for…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10522496&pnum=0

"I don't care what anyone says about me but... to have somebody out there who could…

It's great one-liners from start to finish from Raybon. Including the headline.

The mocking of the parental split-up is a personal favourite. The only thing he missed was in (rightly) bagging Telfer's "input" into this is the fact that Veitch snr and Telf are best mates.

http://stuff.co.nz/4624560a10.html

The article makes me feel a bit sick. I wondered how long it would take for more finger pointing in Dunne-Powell's direction

Dunne-Powell initially sought $127,000 in October last year, then upped that to $150,000 after Veitch twice went back with lower offers;

Veitch also agreed to pay $5000 to a women's anti-violence group;

This ,from the heralds unnamed sauce.

NZ legal system

Priceless.

message brought you by Windows Mobile®.

http://stuff.co.nz/4623235a11.html

The voting issue & Mil service may be a resentment towards Orthodox Jews not serving in the military.

I think you're right about Platoon.

I've got a cartoon somewhere that goes to say the training was good and all,…

Starship Troopers was an American ideal of Israel.
Holocaust (Shoah)/Argentina=Auschwitz
Constant attack/outnumbered
Dehumanised enermy
Own Superiority (Doogy Howser)
Mil. Structure – Army meritocracy (Israel you only become an officer after the rank of Sgt).
Shower scene = gender equality

I was more thinking of the book, which goes into a…

Yet later it transpired that the money was paid after the victim's lawyers demanded $150,000 compensation from Veitch's lawyers. There are other names than compensation claim for such demands, but no one so far has bothered to look into that.

My impression from what came out over the past couple…

Starship Troopers was an American ideal of Israel.
Holocaust (Shoah)/Argentina=Auschwitz
Constant attack/outnumbered
Dehumanised enermy
Own Superiority (Doogy Howser)
Mil. Structure – Army meritocracy (Israel you only become an officer after the rank of Sgt).
Shower scene = gender equality

We put it forward as…

George himself was hinting furiously in that direction yesterday. I have no idea if his claim regarding the victim is true or not. My italics below.

Well, there are other names than spineless columnist talking shit behind his hands for what George is doing there. Defamation is one. Vilification, slander,…

I'm intrigued by The Mote in God's Eye. Always willing to develop an alternate sci-fi obsession to Iain M Banks, whose last novel was a bit of a disappointment.

I've always thought that a true post-scarcity society (like Banks' Culture) would be utterly fabulous to live in. But from a…

"There are other names than compensation claim for such demands, but no one so far has bothered to look into that."

But that would be making shit up.

Over at you-know-where some are suggesting she was blackmailing him.

George himself was hinting furiously in that direction yesterday. I have no idea if his claim regarding the victim is true or not. My italics below.

Yet later it transpired that the money was paid after the victim's lawyers demanded…

Back on topic: there is, predictably, a letter in the Herald praising Garth George's commonsense approach and blaming Veitch's victim for taking the money rather than reporting the incident. Sigh.

It's inevitable. Over at you-know-where some are suggesting she was blackmailing him. Oh well, the truth will out.

Back on topic: there is, predictably, a letter in the Herald praising Garth George's commonsense approach and blaming Veitch's victim for…

I'm just impressed that you'd get within six foot of anything with Jerry Pournelle's name on the cover.

I detox afterwards with some Charlotte Bronte. Or George Eliot. Or the divine Jane.

military science fiction — a genre which is, to put it mildly, rather estrogen light and heavily populated by populist right-wingers who regard Ayn Rand as a wimp

s'funny how there always has to be a natural disaster/complete societal breakdown, coupled with an ongoing and near-permanent external threat in order…

Aaagh! Just looked at your link. I take it all back

Hey, I'm just impressed that you'd get within six foot of anything with Jerry Pournelle's name on the cover. Never really thought of military science fiction — a genre which is, to put it mildly, rather estrogen light and…

Karen of Taupo sez: "If everyone that has abused someone resigned from their jobs there would not be many people in the work force."

Linda of Silverdale sez: "Well, all you judge/jurers/executioners, you have got your wish. Tony Veitch…

Craig, I agree that explanation makes perfect sense, but it's not what they're saying. Always the lying and covering up that gets folk in trouble.

Why is this the only place on earth I get regularly pinged for being over-generous? :)

On the gripping hand (that's an obscure sci-fi reference)

…

Security looks pretty tight though.
They've obviously heard about all this.

And that flag is certainly not hoist by its own petar... whoops wrong thread;)

Yay. Up (down?) there with the ever nauseating Michael Laws describing the squalid sex-capades of Richards, Schollum and Co. as "mere sensual excesses". A term I'd reserve for eating a whole batch of Dave's Double Chocolate Raspberry Brownies solo, and in one sitting.

Thanks Craig, that really made me smile.

Yamis, you'd better have pictures of them stairs. :)

Security looks pretty tight though.
They've obviously heard about all this.

He's already got Rick Ellis if he needs a patsy.

I'd sure be staying well clear of the Minister's office, those stairs or the lobby for that matter. Back at Cluedo again.

Some of the more devoted fans of Niven and Pournelle will sometimes slip into this metaphor in regular speech, often resulting in some confusion for the listener. The abbreviation OTGH, modeled on OTOH, is also used in…

Perhaps, but I wonder if any organisation that had been through the kind of industrial relations mill TVNZ has been through in recent years wouldn't be inclined to err on the side of over-reaction.

Craig, I agree that explanation makes perfect sense, but it's not what they're saying. Always the…

OTOH, am I the only person who thinks Mallard would be wise to step a little carefully himself.

No. Glasshouses and all that. On the gripping hand (that's an obscure sci-fi reference), Mallard's one is perhaps one of those coldframes made out of an old drawer with the bottom knocked…

OTOH, am I the only person who thinks Mallard would be wise to step a little carefully himself.

That's for sure. The stairs outside parliament look way hard.

Giovanni:
As for the idea that good television presenters aren't plentiful because it's harder than it looks... it seems to me there's always the exact same number at any one time, enough to fill the available slots. And honestly they all blend into the same presenter as far as I'm…

...in light of what TVNZ bosses have said about who knew what and when, either Veitch or TVNZ are lying.

Quite, Ali. Just been watching Campbell Live. John Campbell nailed Rick Ellis about that during his press conference and then had Bill Ralston agreeing that it simply doesn't add up…

He said Veitch had resigned "off his own bat". "I applaud him for that, I think he has done the honourable thing."

How coincidental that Veitch waited until his ex lodged a formal complaint with the police. Honourable my arse.

There have been a lot of statements made that are untrue

Really? Then go ahead and say what really happened, big guy. Cowardly and whining to the end.

"At all times I have been honest with my employers and at all times I have tried to do the right thing for everyone."

OK, so in light of what TVNZ bosses have said about who knew what and when, either Veitch or TVNZ are lying. Which is…

He said TVNZ had been his life, but recent media coverage had made it "untenable" for him to continue in his on-air roles.

reads as this in the Herald

There have been a lot of statements made that are untrue which make it untenable now for me to continue…

In a statement released this afternoon, Veitch thanked his former employers for their "ongoing support".

"I need to take stock of my life and spend time with my family before I make any decisions about my future. At the time I undertook counselling and am still continuing to do…

Perigo ………….. cultist
Laws …………… apologist
Miles Davis …….. he’s on talk sport and thinks the English rugby team just got up to “a bit of fun “ with their recent rape/sex accusations…………… Sexist + pro violence
Veitch………………. Woman beater

………………. And seeing as…

Or am I just playing into his hands as New…

Is it defamation to call him a douchebag?

My source at the venerable law firm of Sue, Grabbitt and Runne tells me that there's a very angry douchebag who's going to take you to the cleaners for the grotesque libel. And I've no sympathy for you. :)

He characterises the…

He characterises the assault as a "contretemps", speculates baselessly about provocation on the victim's part, blames the media, suggests that the victim should have been investigated for blackmail — and winds up his column with a weirdly inappropriate biblical metaphor.

Hard News – __We Read This Shit So You Don't…

I’m struggling to work out the relevance of viewing the stairs. What next?

if you follow the thread it relates to this story from the herald which quotes an unnamed source as saying Veitch threw Dunne-Powell down the stairs and left her there for about 6 hours.

My comment was in…

Is it defamation to call him a douchebag?

Might depend on the type of douchebag.

Is it defamation to call him a douchebag?

The douchebag might not be best pleased.

in wades Garth George

Is it defamation to call him a douchebag?

He characterises the assault as a "contretemps", speculates baselessly about provocation on the victim's part, blames the media, suggests that the victim should have been investigated for blackmail — and winds up his column…

After all, it was summer, who says he wasn’t wearing jandals etc…

Me: I'm happy to take Russell's word for it.

Robbery: but that would be nothing to do with the position of perceived power jill mentioned earlier?

Russell: Heh. Like that would work with Deborah ... No, it would be more like not making some stupid implication that I'm lying.

Just…

As an aside, isn't Broadcast News a great show (great cast particularly).

So was Sports Night, and it certainly made me realise that it would take considerable talent to host a SportsCenter-type show. But the freaking sports news segment on One News at Six? Give me a break. I'll stick…

Perigo's quote about the extraordinary level of talent it takes.

My sister-in-law used to read the news with Perigo, she had/has a very favourable impression of him... as did I until I heard what he personally thinks, now I think he's a twerp (reinforced by his idiotic comments about Veitch)…

There was all that wacky unscripted banter with BOK; remember?

I'll do it here. Because seriously, how much "exceptional talent" would it take? Isn't it just a matter of being presentable, flashing the right smile, not getting the score wrong too often?

As funny as I really did find you point ... it's possibly a little harsh... good television journalists/presenters…

That’ll be something to look back on with pride should there be a few quieter years lying ahead.

It's like winning an award for driving to work, or getting the mail out of the letter box.

I'm with you there. Plus he won best TV sports presenter in a field of how many? three? I'm assuming their counting Prime here. And there's a winner a year, so presumably…

Can I just point out that when I wrote about being in awe with Veitch's talent, that was being snarky....

Ah, good to know. But this is one of those issues where you find yourself thinking with monotonous regularity "someone's tugging on my man-bits here", and then you have the…

My point was that I don't think any degree of talent gives you a pass on just being a decent human being. I know that's not where you were going, giovanni, but damn it people are.

Can I just point out that when I wrote about being in awe with…

Very flattering
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x141/goodforthekids/Jorts-Black-Man.jpg

Andrew, it's a contraction of 'jean shorts' – what we would call denim shorts. (There is also the 'jirt'... chambray. Shudder.)