Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Rape and unreason

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  • BenWilson, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    I’m being dead serious, Ben

    I know. I hope it was clear I was mocking Jones. His column is ridiculous, every time. It's hard to find anyone more self-entitled in print in NZ.

    The only time I have truly wanted to strangle someone

    Presumably you used your words instead, though, unlike Jones?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Sorry to sound like a broken record here, but the real question is why Tim Murphy didn’t pick up the phone and tell Bob Jones it wasn’t going to run.

    It would've been Shayne Currie to do that.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to BenWilson,

    Vivid lashing evocative lasting penetrating belittling stringent vicious caustic stinging & blasting words - because isnt that what Homo sapiens verbis can do?

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • steve black, in reply to steve black,

    Just in case somebody "fact checks" me, that 99.9999% was a typo and it is supposed to be 99.999%. I blame key bounce. Yes, I still use an actual keyboard. And my computer is connected to my router by a bit of cable. :-)

    I was off reading up on what Obamacare is, and which I came back to the this tab I was past the time for editing. *sigh*

    sunny mt albert • Since Jan 2007 • 116 posts Report Reply

  • andrew r,

    Hear hear kind sir ! Indeed I speed read said column and thought - you fkwit. Bob Jones is a *property* *developer* since when did this ever, in any sense, make him a journalist. Sigh. NZ Herald should today at least be a little ashamed ?

    auckland • Since May 2007 • 99 posts Report Reply

  • Geoff Lealand,

    I think that Bob Jones suffers from sibling envy because his brother Lloyd is a much better writer than he will ever be. Bob has only written several third-rate novels, which have long been remaindered.

    Screen & Media Studies, U… • Since Oct 2007 • 2560 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Geoff Lealand,

    Bob has only written several third-rate novels, which have long been remaindered.

    When the then Australian Democrats leader the late Don Chipp visited Wellington in the late 80s, Jones met with him and presented him with some of his literary efforts. Amazingly enough the famously foul-mouthed Chipp seemed to have taken the trouble to attempt to read them. When asked at a press conference the following day what he made of his meeting with Jones, Chipp replied (to the best of my recollection) "Does this bloke think he's a writer or something? Bugger me, they're bad".

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Not Bob, in reply to andrew r,

    1. Sir Bob has stated many times that property development is a fools game. He is is a property investor. if you want to find out the difference his property books are worth a look.

    2.I am not Sir Bob.

    Since Oct 2013 • 1 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Dobelina,

    Random thoughts:

    1. Did you watch the trial? Have you read the notes of evidence?

    2. Priestly J sounds incredulous about the jury's view (hence they "entertained" a reasonable doubt).

    3. You say: "but somehow decided that their evidence of being sexually assaulted (one of them was made to disrobe at knifepoint) did not reach the standard for a conviction." Wasn't he charged with indecent assault, not sexual assault? And if so, why do you use the word "rape" in your headline. He wasn't charged with rape.

    4. "did not reach the standard for a conviction." The very HIGH standard.

    5. "On the face of it, it’s a completely irrational verdict." That's a big claim unless your answers to my first two questions at point 1 above are yes.

    Since Mar 2011 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Bob Dobelina,

    Wasn’t he charged with indecent assault, not sexual assault?

    Thank you for pointing out that error, I’ve amended it. I had correctly had it as “indecent assault” in other parts of the post.

    And if so, why do you use the word “rape” in your headline. He wasn’t charged with rape.

    Because Jones’ column was about rape. He talks about it repeatedly.

    5. “On the face of it, it’s a completely irrational verdict.” That’s a big claim unless your answers to my first two questions at point 1 above are yes.

    No, I have not read the notes of evidence. That’s precisely why I said, “on the face of it”. As you note, the judge, who obviously did watch the trial, seemed incredulous at the jury’s decision.

    The judge’s attempt to rationalise the jury’s decision dwelt pretty heavily on the idea that the two young women bore some blame for the assault, an idea Jones enthusiastically endorsed.

    I found the idea that the young women had somehow contributed to the indecent assault on themselves at the same time as they were suffering an aggravated robbery offensive, not to mention unlikely. But it also seemed unlikely to me that the jury had completely rejected Clements’ story in the case of the robbery charge, but accepted the same story in the case of the indecent assault, or found doubt that wasn’t present on the robbery charge.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    It would’ve been Shayne Currie to do that.

    You're quite right. Tim Murphy was promoted to "Editor-in-chief of Herald titles" a little under two years ago. I apologize for the error, and regret any offence caused to Mr. Murphy who has more than enough flaws of his own (as we all do) without getting pinned for anyone else's. :)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Dobelina, in reply to Russell Brown,

    "I found the idea that the young women had somehow contributed to the indecent assault on themselves at the same time as they were suffering an aggravated robbery offensive, not to mention unlikely."

    But they weren't indecently assaulted because the Accused was acquitted.

    That's the finality of verdict.

    I think Priestly J's comments come in his sentencing notes, don't they?

    So what else is he supposed to say after a mixed verdict trial?

    There has to be a difference between (a) accepting the reality that it's dumb to wander around in parks at night; (b) accepting that you should ideally be able to wander around in parks at night without fear and (c) that women aren't asking for it when they do, dumbly, wander around in parks at night.

    If my daughter came home and said she'd been wandering around in a park at night I'd tell her it's a dumb thing to do and it's unfortunate that's the reality of it. If something happened to her, I wouldn't tell her she asked for it but I would suggest that she regulate her behaviour to align with reality.

    Isn't that fair? Isn't that what Jones is trying to say through his hyperbole. Isn't that all Priestly was saying?

    Since Mar 2011 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Bob Dobelina,

    “I found the idea that the young women had somehow contributed to the indecent assault on themselves at the same time as they were suffering an aggravated robbery offensive, not to mention unlikely.”

    But they weren’t indecently assaulted because the Accused was acquitted.

    Do you think the victims lied about one of them being forced to strip at knifepoint? More to the point, do you think the jury thought they lied? Or did the jury accept their account as credible, but decline to convict on it? It seems more likely it's the latter.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Bob Dobelina,

    If my daughter came home and said she’d been wandering around in a park at night I’d tell her it’s a dumb thing to do and it’s unfortunate that’s the reality of it.

    Bob - I spent the best part of two weeks in Germany last year, and didn't retire to my hotel room as soon as night fell. Didn't find it at all "dumb" to be in cities like Berlin with a civilized night life where women aren't presumed to have targets glued to their backs.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    If my daughter came home and said she’d been wandering around in a park at night I’d tell her it’s a dumb thing to do and it’s unfortunate that’s the reality of it. If something happened to her, I wouldn’t tell her she asked for it but I would suggest that she regulate her behaviour to align with reality.

    Jesus, Bob… And how would you suggest this woman should have “regulated her behaviour” to align with the reality that being a 62 year-old woman in the middle of the afternoon didn’t protect her from being savagely assaulted in Nelson's Victory Community Gardens on New Year's Day? To paraphrase Helen Clark, dude you’re in a hole. Time to stop digging. Please.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    If my daughter came home and said she’d been wandering around in a park at night I’d tell her it’s a dumb thing to do and it’s unfortunate that’s the reality of it. If something happened to her, I wouldn’t tell her she asked for it but I would suggest that she regulate her behaviour to align with reality.

    Given the vast majority of assaults don't happen in dark parks at all, but at home and work, I assume you'll be finding her a cave and some padlocks so she can properly regulate her behaviour?

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Bob Dobelina,

    If my daughter came home and said she’d been wandering around in a park at night I’d tell her it’s a dumb thing to do and it’s unfortunate that’s the reality of it. If something happened to her, I wouldn’t tell her she asked for it but I would suggest that she regulate her behaviour to align with reality.

    And if your son came home and said he'd been wandering around town late at night on a Friday or Saturday night and had happened to run into some guys who gave him a bashing....? Well, wandering around town where you know there are drunken yahoos is just a dumb thing to do, right? It's unfortunate but that's the reality of it. He should regulate his behaviour to align with reality.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Oh, and 'Bob'? If you really have the courage of your convictions and aren't just trolling, how about using your real name?

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    I spoke to a dear friend of mine last night who had followed the whole thing on Twitter, and was, not distressed, but perturbed. She wondered about the whole point of retweeting, and the endless tweets that linked to the article, and other blogs. She said it was all preaching to the converted, and then she said she would see a single tweet by someone that said "I'll go away and cry now", and no attention was given to that. She said she hoped that she thought perhaps that people considered their RTing to be activism, and expressed her frustration around that. That people were tweeting at the Herald, when the person who really makes the decisions will not be the one reading all the tweets, every single last one, but an employee who is paid to do that, and how distressing and demoralising they may have found that. I relay these thoughts because I, too, believe they bear thinking about.
    I complained to the Herald, and I hope others do too. It's important.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    That people were tweeting at the Herald, when the person who really makes the decisions will not be the one reading all the tweets, every single last one, but an employee who is paid to do that, and how distressing and demoralising they may have found that.

    I'm sure that's true, but I'm also fairly confident Shayne Currie knows what people are saying about his paper on social media. Is saying "fuck this shit" the only form of activism out there? Of course not, but to my mind a foundation of rape culture is silence. The same kind of silence that lends assent to the vile notion that rape only happens in the middle of the night in alleys and dark corners to "plausible" victims.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Yes, and we talked about that too. She seemed to feel that the louder voices, were being heard, though, and not the quieter ones.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    that’s the reality of it.

    align with reality.

    So lets all just lie back and accept the realities of life as they are.
    Is that what you are saying?
    All I see is lowlifes justifying their position. And that goes for Bob Jones as well.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1890 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to andin,

    So lets all just lie back and accept the realities of life as they are.
    Is that what you are saying?

    Well, here's a dose of real reality from Melissa McEwan whose Rape Culture 101 (Strong trigger warning for link) should, but probably never will be, required reading for every journalist, judge, lawyer and politician.

    Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist. Rape culture is avoiding talking about what an absurdly unreasonable expectation that is, since rapists don't announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple.

    and...

    Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to "learn common sense" or "be more responsible" or "be aware of barroom risks" or "avoid these places" or "don't dress this way," and failing to admonish men to not rape.

    I don't know why any of the above is so hard to grasp, but that's rape culture too. Bob Jones and Shayne Currie don't have to, and I guess simple empathy is too much like work.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    As someone who had to go away and cry at least twice yesterday, I appreciate the loud voices. I use my voice where I can, and I hope I use it as effectively as possible, but I can't always.

    That people get angry about this makes me think the perhaps, one day, I won't feel like I'm being ignored when I talk about this stuff.

    Also, I don't know about all those other people, but when I said about having to log off twitter because it was all getting a bit much, a bunch of people messaged me. I hope they did other people too.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    And no. Retweeting is not the only activism people can do. I'd suggest they can submit to this, for a start.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

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