One in Ten Young Americans Has Committed Sexual Violence. The study it reports on is here.

It’s not ’one in ten, it’s 8%, but that’s 8% who self-reported that they had “kissed, touched, or “made someone else do something sexual” when they…

still seems to me one dimensional, But hey, I dont model myself on any rugby player. Just shoot'n the breeze

If I could make a plea for people to submit to this, again.

A lot of work was done in this area by the Taskforce for Action on Sexual Violence, which formulated a report for government between 2007 and 2009. They had input from a number of people, who worked tirelessly at the time, trying to make…

I was happy that he came out full on and called it dumb which I viewed as an improvement. I've seen a lot worse from All Blacks…

This thread is part of making it better. Yes depressing as all hell. But really read some of the stuff here and most folks want something better for the next generation, we don't know how to get there but we want it ... that's…

I think some of the responses here strongly indicate the law does need changing. If anyone in this society feels the cost of bringing a criminal to justice to too great personally to bother with then the law has failed in…

Does anyone have any good news about how this is getting better before I leap out the window? Or how to make it better? As the father of a soon to be seven year old girl...

The only thing a jury has to decide is did it happen, or didn't it?

We don't need a law change, we need a culture change. And everyone needs to work together to achieve this. A defendant is tried by a…

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"While I'm saddened and disheartened by the judges comments…

It's a bit late for that. Your whiny self-obsession in a thread where people have really put themselves and their experiences on the line has made me angry.

A quick look at your short commenting history suggests you're more bother to keep around than it's…

And Craig, could you kindly quote back to me where I said that victims of rape were responsible for their fates, because I am struggling to see where I said…

My reading of the jury decision that the original post is about is that the…

And while I was making a serious point, I was operating on the presumption that it went without saying that no rational or decent person would suggest the victims of terrorist attacks on public transport…

That message has been put out plenty before too, after some attacks. I note that the incident that started this discussion involved women walking together, through an apparently well lit park. But hey, let's just shift the goal posts so…

To be fair, the silliness in that exchange started with Bob's analogy with the DMC.

Try Reddit.

Thanks for talking about some really difficult shit with candour, clarity and respect.

@DeanPapa:
Thanks Craig for confirming exactly what I said. Ah, what a pleasure it is to engage in civil conversations here at Hard News!

I thought I was more than fairly characterizing Bob’s contributions to…

Can I just say though? There's a difference between "If I had been more careful, it wouldn't have happened", and "it's my fault". Nothing excuses what those men did to you. Not a thing. And it's not fair to ask you (us, every…

I hope you do feel eventually that it has helped, Helen, because the clarity and honesty of what you’ve said is of value to everyone else here.

Given the nature of the things being discussed here, actually, yes, you…

Otherwise he ‘ought’ to do his job within the letter of the law – and there are few (if any) Laws proscribing dress style in the urban environment…

Perhaps this is…

(Writing that feels a bit rich after my previous post about triggers, but I don't want anyone to feel awful reading what I've got to say.)

Not locking your front door doesn't justify someone taking your TV, etc etc...
No, but you're probably going to get home and…

If you can't handle our civil politeness, and our not agreeing with you, perhaps you'd like to try another forum.

Actually Dean, that’s exactly where we started: with the judge who sought to rationalise the decision of a jury that apparently accepted the victims’ account but refused to convict on the…

Also, if you're worried about words being put in the mouths of others, please don't claim to speak for all fathers. Thanks.

No, Bob. What you keep saying is that the 52 killed (and hundreds injured) in the 7/7…

Ah I see. It’s “extremely difficult to regulate” the stuff that actually accounts for most sexual assault, but you can be safe…

Her full Harper's Bazaar piece is here.

Warning: contains pictures of actual breasts. Unlike the NZ ad.

Got it, and that is how I…

Funny thing is that I've never read that monologue as a 'rape joke' (standard caveat: plenty of folks disagree, respectably, but I'm not comfortable linking in this context), but... well, you know a…

I very much agree. But I still think, having read it over yet again, that Dylan's substantive point wasn't that…

I had this fascitious "if we build it, they will come moment. Which I supressed because it's too serious a subject for trivial jokes. And then I had a thought, what if New Zealand could become 100% rape-free?

Do you think we…

Women occasionally rape men, women occasionally rape women, men sometimes rape men, but the overwhelmingly most common cases are men raping women.

This is how it is.

Most men are not rapists…

It does. I think the interesting thing about the way in which this conversation has played out is that because most women are hammered with messages constantly and most men aren't, there are these two perspectives that (unless carefully elaborated upon)…

all of this.

Oh well that's... alright... then... somehow?

+1

Brave and powerful words. Thanks.

Helen, especially, thank you for sharing that, it was brave and generous, and wrenching.

I get (probably unreasonably) annoyed by the…

And thanks, everybody, for the fascinating, intelligent, informative discussion.

I speak from experience. I'm often wrong, I just never admit it ... oh wait.

You misunderstand. I can and will have these conversations. Willingly.

But the general public really doesn't want to have hard conversations very often at all. Even ones that don't have the emotional charge that this conversation has. I love to talk about my science, really really really…

Oh, yes. The cancer one.…

But, as Bart says, it’s easy to get it wrong in them. I think it’s a freakin’ modern marvel that this particular, very, very frank conversation hasn’t blown to smithereens like it might have in many…

I’ve just been thinking about that, on re-sighting a comment of…

Aside from the obvious problems with expecting us to teach others, rather than on them…

Ya think? They aren't easy conversations to have. And you will make mistakes while having them the first time (or even the 20th).

It's why I'm not a fan of the jargon around the issue. You spend so much time 'splaining the jargon…

Thank you for this, and all of what you wrote. Thank you!

Done.

and yup men can get it too even though they’re way less likely to

So I have a lump in one of my mighty man breasts. Went to the doctor immediately when…

Which, yes. Is awful.

But let’s not forget that it was a man who assaulted me, and men who taught him that it was ok to do that. (Eta: in his specific…

That’s true. I have been expressing things that way as a useful shorthand but it’s a bit eraser-ish. Sorry.

And probably more to the point — as Dylan illustrated in that jury story on page one — some…

I'm 1.88 m tall and 95 kg. My CAT views me as a danger, I may not like it but it is realistic from her perspective. It's my job to make her feel comfortable not her job.

Same applies to women, whether I like…

I don't want to read back through, to check, what I've said but i try really hard not to say we need to say these things *to men*. If I did, I apologise. Because we need to…

Couldn't agree more – and a non-trivial part of the It's Not OK campaign was "de-normalizing" the idea that violence is the preserve of (let's be blunt) poor/working class and/or brown people.…

nobody was willing to come out and help us or ask our parents what’s going on … we thought it was normal… We just looked at it that this wasn’t a problem, [because] no one was here telling us…

I have two sons. Isabel has two sons. Jolisa has two sons. Russell has two sons. It's not like we're all angling for them to have "I have rape potential" tattooed on their foreheads.

but the good kind, not the kind that I normally have in conversations like these.

Word. I wanted to add that I have so much aroha for everyone who has told their stories in this thread and elsewhere, and that the whole of your comment was powerfully put, not just the bit I pulled out for reply.

Which might be a useful point to talk about the very successful It’s Not…

Ah then, put an "almost" in front of the "anyone", and he's come to the right place :-) Long past the point other discussion joints would have gone completely…

Nicely put. Hard to think how it could be worse. Ergo, the…

I am surrounded by…

I couldn't…

So do I. And I very much get what everyone else is saying. If we keep on assuming each other's good faith, I think we'll survive.

Yes, perceptions can be misleading. There is no outward physical sign of being a rapist.…

I've never felt as utterly powerful as the days I spent in my early 20s walking around Tokyo at midnight, by myself, in a blissful bubble of ignorance, having been told (I forget by whom) that it was perfectly…

The idea that ensuring explicit consent is dull is just… you get it’s…

I think I’ve shared the story before of walking home late at night on Ponsonby Road and deliberately putting some distance between me and her so she wouldn’t have to worry that I might be a…

I've been seen as that strange man who knows how many times. It's always bittersweet because when I see a woman walking in front of me through a park…

That's cool. From the perspective of women, however, every man (including you, and me) definitely is a potential rapist. Or could maybe physically assault them. Or could, at the very least, lean out of…

I don't think they're equivalent.

"Don't wear…

but have you considered that your perspective is a little skewed

genetically you are stronger…

Golden Rule is tricky because if the thought going through the boy's head is "Would I like it if this girl fucked me right now?" then the answer will almost invariably be "YES I WOULD." but if you could convince…

Until I have evidence otherwise? Yes.

That's the problem. I don't think…

No, what actually emboldens and normalises abusers is the idea that nice white middle-class tertiary-educated First World blokes like me – and…

Do parents teach their kids to beware of strangers ?
stranger danger
don't get in a car with a stranger
don't talk to strangers on the way home from school...
some parents drive their kids or walk their kids to and from school to…

You don't think that hearing a message that, in a way boils down…

The TV news says "may disturb viewers" That works for me.What you have said works for you seems totally understandable for a wide range of viewing.Because it seems wide ranging…

Yes I definitely understand that.

In reading…

Firstly, you can't cover all potential triggers – me, I get triggered when people talk about kids reading under the bed covers. But I…

What you seem to be doing, in this part of the thread, is confusing an abstract but meaningful perception by most women as…

I've written far more words on this topic in these comments than…

No, I don't think I said that. We should find ways to have these discussions, but stigmatizing half the population in the eyes of everyone doesn't seem productive basically.

If…

REALLY?

why is this even a conversation? and i'm really sorry you were made feel a threat to women.

Try growing up being taught how to protect yourself from being attacked. Try seeing how that feels. That it's normal that you walk with the keys…

It may be more subtle than that, but it can easily be…

1. Your feelings “as a man” are more important than teaching people what rape is, and how to prevent it.

2. Because of the way society preaches to women that it is our responsibility to prevent ourselves being attacked, we should not leave the house…

As a guy, it's a message I feel like I receive at times from these types of campaigns.

I actually got yelled at, as a random passer by, at an "anti rape" protest…

We seem to be arguing at cross purposes,…

OK, that is not, in fact, what anyone has said, or what any of these campaigns say. The "potential" for women…

Yes. In some ways it is. Simply sitting up and saying "would you like to have sex?" is often not practical or reasonable.

Absolutely you should be…

I truly don’t understand this. Is it really that hard, when…

I've always found this issue troubling. There are…

I believe domestic violence rates went "up" as a result of increased reporting (but someone else probably knows more about it than me). So yes. Things percolating around in the culture – issues being discussed or reframed when they were ignored before – actually *do*…

The thing is, it apparently does take some effort. The…

The trouble with that is if one person wants sex, they may assume the other person does too.
As noted above, many rapists don't think their actions are hurting anyone. They assume they know what…

I'm pretty certain that reasonable ideas about consent can…

Definitely not suggesting it's fair.

This is absolutely true (and we can thank the second wave for the feminist theory about this very issue).

Except that sexual assault is way, WAY more common than child abduction.

Do you know what it's like to always, always feel fearful when out alone at night, and often in the daytime…

The majority of that 7% repeated their behaviour, so they hurt a wider circle of people than the percentage figure might imply.

I couldn't disagree more with that interpretation. The former has all the essentialist futility you're…

The one moral lesson I try to drum into my kids is "the golden rule" – it works…

I don't disagree – but I think it's that victim blaming (and perpetrator excusing)…

Indeed, all men can be perceived as potential rapists, but not all are.…

I think society can do that – not just men. And I think it has a lot more to do with stopping victim blaming than it does with…

I don't think that's…

Well, I don't see how it needs to be a pendulum swinging between extremes. How's about a little balance? Surely we should be able to teach our kids that there are bad people and broken people out there who could…

2. As Lilith says, anti-rape campaigns aimed at men aren't about hurting your…

A long time ago, when one of my sibs marriages was…

Every adult needs to know what consent is, and how to be sure they have it. Many convicted rapists DON'T know what consent is, or how to ask for it. They think a woman must…