Hard News: Narcissists and bullies
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
SAILOR RIPLEY, YOU GET ME SOME MUSIC ON THAT RADIO THIS INSTANT! I MEAN IT! (Sorry, that’s all I’ve got.)
That pretty much sums up how I feel about where this thread has gone as well
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Kate Hannah, in reply to
Thanks Danielle. I'd even tentatively suggest that some people are starting to miss the point here. Which is that harm has been done and that those that have caused that harm have been able to continue to do so.
This thread, as it currently stands, is making me feel unsafe. But that's based on my life experience, and thus I will withdraw.
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Lilith __, in reply to
I can’t think of any time I’ve heard of a cop being told about a moral crime, and then getting a warrant to go kicking in a door and searching around someone’s private stuff for evidence, that they wouldn’t relish the opportunity.
It was a long time ago, but what about what happened to Louise Nicholas?
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In my (sample of one, and over twenty years ago) experience, getting a prosecution case together takes time. As I recall, it was at least a year from when I reported the paedophilia until he was arrested. That time was spent collecting statements from the other young women involved and preparing the case. Although I was furious and frustrated over the wait at the time, in hindsight it was sensible. The police had everything prepared at the moment they arrested him, and executed a search warrant at the same time (so they could also gather up all his “amateur photography”). Having the case so well prepared at the time of arrest I think meant it was immediately clear that there was no point in trying any other plea than guilty. Though of course with the way the courts work etc. it was still another year before the final court appearance and sentencing.
So, I don’t know if things are still managed in the same way, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all that with a more difficult case, with no voluntary witnesses, it could easily take two years and longer to bring an investigation to the point of arrest. From that point of view, the police may well have asked themselves whether shutting down the facebook page would have stopped the activity, or merely inhibited their ability to collect evidence. In making that decision, they would appear to have been unaware that the presence of the facebook page would be making things worse for the raped.
Nevertheless, I’m still not absolutely certain that their decision wasn’t the right one. Successfully prosecuting rape is difficult. Given the possibility of the jury having the same ideas about duplicitous jailbait that are common enough, as seen above, in even relatively liberal discourse, the police would want as much evidence as possible to either a) convince the perpetrators to plead guilty immediately; or, should they not, b) mount a water-tight prosecution.
While I wouldn’t pretend for a second to know how the victims in this case feel, nor do I know what I’d say if I were one of them, and the police had come to me and said “We can have the facebook page shut down now, and then you won’t have to live with the knowledge that it’s out there, but it will be much harder for us to gather enough evidence to send them to jail. What would you like us to do?” And I’m not even sure that the police should make the raped make that decision.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
When you’re worried about lawsuits for defamation, quite easily.
Hardly. I made a conscious choice in the original post, to call rape, rape.
The chances of a successful defamation action are less than zero when the plaintiff has repeatedly described himself as a rapist.
It was pissing me off on Radio NZ this morning that they kept talking about "group sex".
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That this story broke so soon after this fascinating piece on Nine To Noon last Thursday seemed prescient..
Dr Michael Flood, a Senior Lecturer in Sociology at the University of Wollongong discusses teenage boys and pornography. At what point is it harmful and how can parents deal with this?
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Blair Rogers, in reply to
The attempts at cleaning their various social media postings seems to be very hit and miss. But certainly appears to be a bit of cleaning going on - quite possibly futile.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I get that some people here enjoy speculating and arguing the toss, but when it's on the subject of serial gang rape of girls?? I want to throw up, and I'm not even getting triggered. Spare a thought for the survivors, eh?
Yes, and I'd again ask everyone to bear that in mind. But I did explicitly question the police's actions in the original post, so discussing that is relevant.
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stephen clover, in reply to
It was pissing me off on Radio NZ this morning that they kept talking about “group sex”.
Well, when actually does group sex become rape? If for example, a young woman of legal age consents to get grossly intoxicated with a bunch of young men and participate in group sex with them, then gets grossly intoxicated -- does her consent status revert to non-consensual?
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Here is the incomparable Scuba Nurse on great constructive things we can do with our anger .
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Russell Brown, in reply to
So, I don’t know if things are still managed in the same way, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all that with a more difficult case, with no voluntary witnesses, it could easily take two years and longer to bring an investigation to the point of arrest.
I'm unconvinced that they have been actively investigating for the past two years. The difference between their first and second statements yesterday leaves me very dubious about that.
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I am appalled at the lack of response from the police. If there is evidence of under age sex, no consent of recorded images/sex possibly defamation then there is evidence to prosecute. Yes, to gain a complaint would strengthen their case but is not necessary. They either don't have the physical evidence which is a nonsense because they had been 'tracking' the facebook site for a number of years and hence accumulating evidence. I have heard that the same boys have been fielding questions on askfm about the aforementioned sexual activities. No complaints but absolute condoning of this behaviour by their peers asking them how they got away with it, what it was like etc... These boys treated these girls as objects, objects whose purpose was to satisfy their own sexual fantasies. I see that one of the boy's father's is a police officer. These actions are not something to 'hide' in the police or in the family these are crimes that needs to be brought before the courts.
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BenWilson, in reply to
It was a long time ago, but what about what happened to Louise Nicholas?
Yes, but that was actually police doing the crime. Interestingly, she speaks in the Herald article today:
Ms Nicholas took police to court for raping her as a teenager and now advises officers how to deal with complaints of rape and sexual violence.
She said it was the law rather than police inactivity stopping officers bringing the Roast Busters to account.
She said it was important the girls knew they would be supported and receive full name suppression if they choose to make a formal complaint.
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Just to interrupt this depressing conversation with something good, I've heard something about one young person on the periphery of this standing up and talking about it in a way that makes me feel hopeful and impressed.
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Lilith __, in reply to
It was a long time ago, but what about what happened to Louise Nicholas?
Yes, but that was actually police doing the crime.
And refusing to take her complaint seriously, or to do anything!
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BenWilson, in reply to
If this turns out to be a case of actual police corruption, then I’d hope, as in the Nicholas case, that the officer doing the obstructing of justice serves some time in prison. But I still find it pretty hard to believe that a bunch of coppers would go to such lengths just to protect the son of another cop, given what loose cannons these rapists are, bragging about it all online. It’s always going to come out.
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Do you really think it's a question of "going to such lengths"? To me it seems more like simple passivity and inaction - failure to follow up when it should have happened - rather than action. It's pretty easy to, like, not arrest people. :)
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and out comes the knee jerk reactionaries vigilante group(s): http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11151474
As anger inducing as all of this is... its also the sense of hopelessness: cue police inaction (or building a case), cue policemans son (what, where, how), cue too many factors that we've seen time and time again....
I can't help but feel that over my lifetime nothings got better but a lot has regressed - thoughts to all those victims who are currently having to battle their demons once again
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BenWilson, in reply to
In the Nicholas case, Dewar was actually jailed for 4.5 years for obstructing justice, and he went to quite some lengths. But in this case, I don't know. Rape is such a common crime that I presume they have a lot of cases in a backlog. Letting one slide further down than it should because the son of an officer is involved is credible, but it's speculation.
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This, from Scuba Nurse at the Hand Mirror, about what we can all do to make a difference in the face of rape culture, is really good.
Edit: Oops! I see Lilith has posted this link already. Well, it's so good and relevant it go go in twice.
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A lot of people are calling for male* violence and abuse of power as a response to rape huh. Rape of course being a crime of male*** violence and abuse of power...
* It's always the "fathers, uncles and brothers" who will teach a lesson?
*** In this case -
Chris Waugh, in reply to
I feel woefully uninformed about this issue and so I'm having trouble following a lot of the discussion here, but, Lucy, your two comments have been superb, I really appreciate what you've said here. Thanks.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
This, from Scuba Nurse at the Hand Mirror, about what we can all do to make a difference in the face of rape culture, is really good.
Let me be even more direct.
Donate to Rape Crisis in Auckland.
Donate to Rape Crisis in Wellington - again, critically short of funding.
Channel your anger into helping the people who deal with this shit every single day. I cannot fathom people who claim they would commit assault if it was their daughter, but when it's other people's daughters, won't even do this. Chuck them a twenty. Then you can tool around on the internet debating hypotheticals all day in good conscience.
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teenage boys and pornography
It may be a phenomenon that is impacted by porn. On the other hand, the last couple of chapters of "Cider With Rosie" by Laurie Lee are depressingly similar to this.
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Chris Waugh, in reply to
Here is the incomparable Scuba Nurse on great constructive things we can do with our anger .
Thanks, Lilith (and Russell for seconding it) that is an awesome post with much wisdom (and hang on a minute, I just managed to open a link with blogspot in the URL without having to jump the Firewall.... I wonder how long that will last).
Be the person advocating body autonomy for the children and young people around you.
Ask before you hug or kiss friends, family or other people you greet.Oh, yes, this one. I occasionally have to fend off people who think it's perfectly acceptable to run up and touch or hug "the little foreigner", and just last night on the way home from kindergarten it was one of my own students who did it. Unfortunately this time, being on the bike, there wasn't much I could do to put myself between him and her, but I know his timetable and I will shortly be wandering over to give him a stern talking to. He freaked her out so badly I had to quickly find a quiet spot (hah! a quiet spot in urban China!), stop, and just hold her until she'd calmed down again before we could continue on our way. None of these situations have been in any way rape-y (though I have described a more disconcerting acquaintance elsewhere on PAS), and it's not even remotely comparable to the crime at hand, but it all starts somewhere, right? Amongst all the other really good stuff in that post, I was just glad to see somebody saying that.
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