Hard News: Feminist as crazy old man
468 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 … 9 10 11 12 13 … 19 Newer→ Last
-
Again, there was and still is collateral damage. This thread is all about ironing some of that out.
The question is, and its entirely reasonable, what about the men?
Well those are valid and fair questions - feminism and what its done hasn't been perfect.
Off the top of my head, "I don't know", but some of the examples that have been raised a just wrong.
-
On the subject of elective caesarians (another judgy one), one of the things that gets people going is the word "elective". It doesn't mean what many people think it means: too posh to push. It means that a caesarian is decided upon before the birth, generally for medical reasons like the baby's in breach position, as opposed to done in an emergency setting.
I remember reading somewhere, several years ago (and I can't remember if it was NZ or international), a bunch of doctors, or maybe a medical society raising concerns about the increased numbers of elective c-sections which were done by choice - for cosmetic or fear of natural birth or other reasons - rather than medical reasons. Their concern was that a c-section was a relatively decent bit of surgery and surgery should be avoided where possible in childbirth.
Which seemed fair and reasonable to me - these are issues that informed doctors and midwives should be raising both amongst themselves and with prospective mothers as part of providing good medical care.
-
But there's a big strand of "these women have all these choices now and are doing stupid things with them, it must be stopped!" in those debates. On the other hand, there's an equally annoying "what do we need all these experts for, they're only out to oppress you with their opinions, it's my choice," vibe out there too.
And how many heart by-passes or chemo treatments does a c-section cost compared to a natural birth.
-
Off the top of my head, "I don't know"
There is an element of that, yes. And the document that Steven linked to had sensible suggestions on the kind of advocacy that is required, as well as some of the difficulties that it faces. It doesn't help that several in-the-news men's advocates are in fact deranged anti-feminist and anti-women types, à-la dad4justice. But hey, not all of them are. And ultimately isn't it up to men to organise? Women sure didn't get much help when they started on their journey, nor did they live in a culture that encouraged them to speak up.
-
And how many heart by-passes... does a c-section cost compared to a natural birth.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "none".
Has a serious screaming at the television moment on Sunday.
Oh, but, but... [SPOILERS] When Joan smashed that vase over her husband's head because he was displaying his total ignorance by having a 'you can't know what it's like moment' - look, it's even relevant! - my little heart just lit up.
-
-
Emma, I reckon you're dead right. It's quick surgery that doesn't need general anaesthesia, just (I understand) upping an epidural that may already be in place. Compare that with the pump machines and hours of surgery of a heart bypass, and the expensive drugs of chemo (all I have to go on with that is the cost of Herceptin), ya de ya.
I love Mad Men, although (are we up to this bit yet?) I'm pretty sure twilight sleep was out of fashion by the 60s.
-
When Joan smashed that vase over her husband's head
That was a surprise and a half, wasn't it? We had to pause and rewind that one. Craig, I don't blame Betty for being unsure of leaving. Really, what are her options?
"Too posh to push"... finally has some data behind it
So it's probably a massive media exaggeration. Oh, what's this? Yeah, it's my surprised face.
B, if childbirth is like long-haul air travel, I suppose that solves the 'to drug or not to drug' question. I can't even get on an hour-long flight to Wellington without serious prescription tranquillisers and a gin and tonic.
-
I'm pretty sure twilight sleep was out of fashion by the 60s.
My mother had it! In 1974. But she was in Venezuela, so I don't know if that counts.
ETA: Huh. This article says that it was beginning to be questioned by the 1950s but the practice continued until the early 1970s. So Betty's experience was reasonably normal and my mother was a bit of an outlier.
-
"Too posh to push" has been in the news as a concept since at least 2000, and I think it finally has some data behind it rather than anecdotes and splashy headlines: here and here.
Thanks for that, interesting.
-
So it's probably a massive media exaggeration. Oh, what's this? Yeah, it's my surprised face.
I raised it, and while I wouldn't know where to look for the original article, I remember taking notice of it because it was medical professionals raising the concerns, not media. Anyway, good to see some data suggesting that it's not such a reality.
-
I mentioned parenting because it seems to embody gender roles on which biology has a very significant impact.
"It's my right to have babies......."
-
Is it safe now? Been watching this for days and thinking about saying many things, which between Sacha, Ben and Sofie, and the other main stays, have all pretty much been said. So I'll just speak from experience.
When we had our twins (girls) I was given 6 weeks 'paternity leave' and it is still the most rewarding, challenging, and engaging period of my life. I would also say, that apart from the biological things covered earlier (please don't hit me, I'm trying to be genuine!), the sense of equilibrium in roles between my partner and myself was extraordinary, and while my 'gender politics' started at an early age with my 'feminist' home environment, along with some academic input, like Ben, nothing has engendered* me with a greater understanding of 'these issues' than this.
IMhO, feminism is about what you do, not what you say, and I'll forever be measured against the female role models in my life, who act in accordance with their abilities and beliefs, in spite of the patriarchal environment they find/found themselves in.
Actually, can't I just be an average bloke, who does the vacuuming and makes dinners most nights? Short answer. No!
Finally, back to the article that started it, imagine being the kind of guy that Julie Bindel felt comfortable going down the pub for a drink with. I'm not saying anything, I'm just imagining it. And incidentally, I'd go ;-)
*Unintentional, so acceptable, maybe?
PS Perfect timing. The Monty Python videos are out. Phew!
-
B, if childbirth is like long-haul air travel, I suppose that solves the 'to drug or not to drug' question.
That was with drugs. After the pleasantly buzzy gas couldn't cut it anymore I called for Mr Anaesthetist. The downside is that after a while it pretty much immobilises you (so it felt like sitting in an airline seat) and they wouldn't let me eat anything afterwards, which I didn't find out until it was way too late. So, also like airline travel. I'd hate to fly with an airline that was like childbirth without the drugs.
Anyway, you don't need to decide in advance, and you don't get extra points for having a miserable time. Call it when you get there.
Kyle, medical professions I think raised it amongst themselves, prompted by requests from a few patients - the media went nuts over it when they connected it with the rising caesarian rate and misunderstood what elective meant.
-
On the subject of elective caesarians (another judgy one), one of the things that gets people going is the word "elective". It doesn't mean what many people think it means: too posh to push. It means that a caesarian is decided upon before the birth, generally for medical reasons like the baby's in breach position, as opposed to done in an emergency setting.
Joe Gyno: " I elect to go on holiday on Monday" or "I elect to go and play golf this afternoon".
A few years ago these were well worn comments on the when and why caesars were "performed".
Re breast or bottle. (From the Dad of 3 BFed girls who have turned out far better adjusted than their dear old Dad. Who house-husbanded them for 8-9 years from when the eldest was 6).
Their teeth are a shit load healthier. They seem to have cruised through illness "unopposed". Intelligence off the scale (JOKE but above ave). Of course....close to perfect. :-)
I can't help thinking that if our simple society cannot find a way to allow parentS to care for their children (for at least the first 2 years on at least a one to one basis) and not be penalised materially or career wise and then not expect to suffer increased crime, dysfunctional familes and more prisons, then we will continue to reap those 'rewards'.
It isn't gender, it isn't biology, it isn't feminism.
Maybe it's just a little evolved common sense.
-
Ross, your sample is a bit small, and teeth probably have more to do with water fluoridation. Here's some slightly harder data: UNICEF statement on breastfeeding research
Off to do some right now.
/edit. No, in fact off to change the third nappy in half an hour. Nnngh.
-
From the Dad of 3 BFed girls
By which you mean bottle fed or breastfed?
-
if childbirth is like long-haul air travel, I suppose that solves the 'to drug or not to drug' question. I can't even get on an hour-long flight to Wellington without serious prescription tranquillisers and a gin and tonic.
I recommend the drugs. Epidurals are your friend. My wife went from 'I dont know how much more of this I can take', to 'this isn't so bad after all' after the epidural was administered.
After 12 hours of sitting in the ward listening to women in the other rooms screaming in ways I would never have guessed they were capable of, that came as something of a relief. She was able to (rather vaguely) feel what was going on, and to push when she needed to, but it turned what could have been an extremely traumatic and painful experience into something that was...actually really not that bad...
My only regret was that there wasn't any gas. I didn't get to have a sneaky suck on it when the doc's back was turned.
-
Craig, I don't blame Betty for being unsure of leaving. Really, what are her options?
Few and none of them easy -- and she's caught in the same old hypocrisy that boys will be boys, but the girls they do it with (or any woman who aspires to the same sexual freedom) is a whore.
Don and Betty are both bloody tragic figures in their own ways. They lie to each other, deceive themselves, desperately look to the other to fill holes in their own hearts they can't even acknowledge exist. They're so desperately clinging to something that was never real in the first place that any honest choice is a potential disaster.
-
I recommend the drugs.
I often recommend the drugs. For someone who chose not to have kids, I have been the only person with my sister when she chose to have her naughty boy at home and I certainly needed the drugs, (oh hang on, it's about the mother not the helper ) she should have but, I'll tell you that for nothing!
FWIW Danielle, I suspect you will be fine,and if not ,I suspect you will tell those around you. :) -
Craig, I don't blame Betty for being unsure of leaving. Really, what are her options?
Few and none of them easy --
That's for sure - in the days Mad Men is set Betty's options would not have been that different from Anna Karenina's: if she had wanted to leave her husband she would not have had the right to take her children with her.
-
Emma,
More likely something a lot less than one, but greater than zero.
With the current lot in I reckon health performance is going to be very cost driven and experts who endorse "better outcomes through natural childbirth" are going to be much in demand.
-
Silly bugger....
BFed. Breasts are best.
:-)
Small sample?? 100% success though!!! 3 out of 3. Heh.
-
With the current lot in I reckon health performance is going to be very cost driven and experts who endorse "better outcomes through natural childbirth" are going to be much in demand.
Not if we go the way of Australia and make insurance premiums so expensive as to make the practice of midwifery unsustainable. There is hope yet!
My partner and I are hippy home birthers, but I would rather it be promoted as a valid option for women because of its outcomes, not because it's cheaper for the state coffers. Slipperly slope, etc.
-
'Breasts are best'?
You bet - if the bub can suckle. Or the mum doesnt have problems of one kind or another.My mother fed 5 of us until we were over our first 18 months (as she had 4 of us under 5 years at one stage, this was pretty well continuous lactation.) Her last baby turned out to have a partial cleft palate and physically couldnt swallow the milk.
This is an engrossing thread - so many different takes. Thanks to all contributors.
Post your response…
This topic is closed.