Also includes a great quote from the super Joan Collins:

who surely earned the universe's eternal adoration when, asked whether she was…

(One of my neighbours is a dairy farmer of long experience – she also runs a bull-beef farm. She has had several freemartins in her herds, and said they 'can be bossy and…

One can get scared shitless at times when you think someones accused you of being a mason of the other name!!! ....a bigot...

So I checked my Friend Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemartin ...and lo....mentioned under Fictional Use

Jeez, what gender would THAT be???

The point about freemartins is that they are ambiguous in both appearance & behaviour. (I first came across the word in "Brave New World" nearly 50 years ago, where Huxley used it as a synonym for neuter as I recall.)

The…

Ross Martin??? And no, no squares, aprons or compasses anywhere in the house I am afraid Islander.

My Bull/Cow analogy was to show the lack of visible identity of gender differences within the bull/cow population. It is obvious – and George…

I think I was there at the start ;-)

Yes, indeed. I think the tone was lost a little in that last post...

At least I'd hope we're at that point.

I think I was there at the start ;-)

But I also agree with George Darroch's last post. It's a bit like the current state of the 'nature versus nurture' argument which has become 'nature&nurture' –

there is an excellent book called "Biological Exuberance" by Bruce Bagemihl, that I reccomend to anyone…

There really are some gender roles that have a strong biological basis.

I think that people have got to the point that they can accept that gender roles are neither wholly biologically determined or socially constructed, but are variously influenced by either.

At least I'd hope we're at that point.

I don't recall seeing overt lesbian cows huddling in the corner keeping to themselves or keeping safe from the bulls....the huddle appeared more for protection from predators rather than a rampant bull.

Wikipedia:Homosexual behaviour in animals:

"the animal kingdom [does] it with much greater sexual diversity —…

freemartins

So biology does influence gender?

Male. Female.

I have been wracking my brain trying to remember if I have ever encountered a gender neutral bull/cow. Or even a genuine bull>cow or a cow>bull. Yes, steers and cows "bonk" their own when in heat but I don't recall seeing overt lesbian cows huddling in…

Really?
In my whanau, everyone takes the lids off their own bottles, whether preserving jars or booze...everyone learns the tricks for the recalcitrant containers

Yes really.

While of course anyone can get the lid of a troublesome bottle many women/females have learned the tool that requires the least effort to…

Testosterone leads to fairness, not aggression: researchers

... but the women who thought they'd got testosterone were more agressive.

Speculation at the bottom:

Eisenegger said the experiment suggests that testosterone increases a person's sensitivity to status. In animals with simple social systems, aggressiveness can lead to…

if a British man wants to come to New Zealand and pay a willing sex worker for sex... what's wrong with that, exactly

The release of approximately 9,336 lbs CO2 into the upper atmosphere caused by said British man's round trip flight?

Yes, fair enough. I can't really argue with that – perhaps I should find a way of bringing about a testosterone-fuelled enraged response.

Ah, but I'd have seen you coming down the street and socially mediated such an enraged response before you even got to me.

Bindel really does come off as a dreadful piece of work in that comments exchange. Patronising, immature and arrogant.

There are smart, smart British sex workers blogging on teh interwebz. Any one of them would be more deserving of Bindel and Gold's column space than they are. IMO, of course.…

Bindel really does come off as a dreadful piece of work in that comments exchange. Patronising, immature and arrogant.

Yes, and what I said about popping down the pub with her, can someone please apply the redacted brush of 'WTFWITA' to that aberration. I'd rather have my nails removed with…

This may be of interest: a blog by a sex worker who attended a panel discussion on sex work which included Julie Bindel. Bindel then joins in in the comments.

Quick! Hand me a non-gendered insult!

Bindel really does come off as a dreadful piece of work in that comments…

You're not suggesting that cats socially construct gender in the same way we do, are you?

No! I'm saying that a biological intervention — the removal of most of his supply of testosterone — has significantly altered his social and territorial behaviour.

In humans, men produce between 40 and 60…

Julie Bindel has a day job — and, I think, an important one: researching the sex industry.

And this is why what she and Tanya Gold are making up about the NZ sex industry concerns me so much – because there's debate in England right now about changing the law…

Also, his male-cat social behaviour has been fundamentally altered by the surgical removal of his testicles.

You're not suggesting that cats socially construct gender in the same way we do, are you? If you are, I hope you're bringing a powerful torch and good supplies into that cave.

We shall…

masculine and feminine is gender

Actually, that is less confusable than "man" or "woman", given common usage.

So what I wrote above would say:

Females who do not have babies are not therefore males. However, it does affect their relationship with the socially-negotiated feminine role.

Touché.

Also, his male-cat social behaviour has been fundamentally altered by the surgical removal of his testicles.

Still confusing sex with gender here.

Sex = male, female, biological.
Gender = man, woman, social.

Isn't that the opposite of what Gio said?

So my biologically male cat should actually be referred to as a "man"?.

Touché.

BBC ran a Doco which Dawkins scores low on the temporal lobe test/unable to lose a sense of self (egotist)/hasn't had a brain injury.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

So my biologically male cat should actually be referred to as a "man"?

"Dude" will do, if you're talking about Colin

It's one of the things I enjoy about Mad Men, watching how much some things have changed and how little others have.

Are you thinking of Mad Males?

Ah, semantics! Biologically male means man, not male.

So my biologically male cat should actually be referred to as a "man"?

Dude, the scientists want their words back.

Sex = male, female = biological.
Gender = man, woman = social.

Females who do not have babies are not therefore males. However, it does affect their relationship with the socially negotiated role of 'woman'. That has changed a lot over the decades, especially…

Being biologically male means, by definition, not being able to have babies.

Ah, semantics! Biologically male means man, not male. I brought the example of the pregnant male nary an hour ago.

The role is based on biology, testosterone affects muscle mass and hence the gender role is defined by the biology..

That one is especially interesting since in athletics maleness is defined by how much testosterone is found in your body. And if you have too much of it, you transcend…

Not if you actually explore what being a social male means. Because if one of the thing it means is not being able to have babies, then what about females who can't have babies – are they males?

Of course not. Being biologically male means, by definition, not being able…

Really?

In my whanau, everyone takes the lids off their own bottles, whether preserving jars or booze...everyone learns the tricks for the recalcitrant containers (e.g a smart tap with the back of a knife in 2…

Regarding prostitution: Fark!! I know very little about prostitution. For my (untutored) part, very roughly, if a woman freely consents to sex work, then you go for it, girl.

Free consent is part of it: the other is the safety of those choices. It really came home to me when…

A male gender role in modern society is to take lids of bottles*. The role is based on biology, testosterone affects muscle mass and hence the gender role…

That immediately suggests one way in which the rape of men and the rape of women may differ significantly, and failing to understand the difference could be problematic.

Air New Zealand appears to think that they are different, but not in a good way. They think that a…

Did anybody link to Gay Teen Worried He Might be Christian yet?

Sex where a boy is involved, and by 'boy' I mean a child under the age of consent, is rape, because by law, a child under the age of consent simply can not consent to sex.

In New Zealand at least, this is false.

"A child under the age of…

Most `biological' males are also `social' males; therefore there must be some element of biological determination in there.

Not if you actually explore what being a social male means. Because if one of the thing it means is not being able to have babies, then what about females who can't…

And whatever we might say about gender roles, it seems, to me, that the fact that men can't have babies is a significant and influential biological reality.

Gender is entirely socially constructed. If you say "largely", then I'm going to have to ask you, give me an example of an…

So I buy into Giovanni's contention that gender is to a large extent, socially constructed (based on physical vs social understanding of sex and gender).

Oh, for sure. I just objected to the idea that gender roles and realities are entirely a social construct when, to me anyway, they also…

Back on topic (hah!)

What's the exclamation mark for?

Perhaps expressing the futility of expecting us to do anything other than allow the random firing of neurons to lead us from subject to subject :P

Good to see you back from kangaroo island, Deborah.

And with such an epic post!

Regarding twins: @Recordari – one egg or two egg twins for you? We've got one egg twins, which is not what you'd expect given fertility treatment where two egg twins are much more common.

Two. The first photo in the album was taken down the microscope. And while I certainly…

Regarding infertility: Been there, done that, and it's bloody awful and sometimes I still cry about it, mostly if I happen to hear…

I think trafficking must be a bigger issue in the UK due to the EU and so…

See column, Why men use prostitutes.

And original research, to which she contributed.

The research is based on structured interviews with 103 respondents to newspaper advertisements, and it's hard…

Anyway, discussion has moved on a little bit, but just wanted to respond to a couple of things.

I would like to note, however, that discussions…

Revealed at last a whole colony of Amazons!
are they devi-ants?
or even miscre-ants?
maybe they are Lesbi-ants...

The complete asexuality of a widespread fungus-gardening ant, the only ant species in the world known to have dispensed with males entirely, has…

I've never wanted to breed little islands.

Really? I can understand not wanting to breed babies but making islands would be really cool in a geeky engineering way of course.

An archipelago even?

Kyle that could be taken ,well,let's say, a little creepy

Umm yeah. Well for clarity's sake, my oldest is a boy.

Two out of three bought on labour with my oldest.

Kyle that could be taken ,well,let's say, a little creepy

Sadly labour took most of two days, so perhaps we got it started too early.

We?? With your oldest??
With all these difficult labour stories I can totally understand a…

Or all those things at once. Spare no expense, that's what I say.

I thought it was a hot curry, hot bath, hot sex.

Two out of three bought on labour with my oldest. Sadly labour took most of two days, so perhaps we got it started too early.

Put us down for two home births, both breastfed for four years or more.

Hospital birth was out of the picture after we visited NatWomens and my love basically fainted. She doesn't like hospitals.

Both births were great. As Russel says – best…

a study of women interacting with children, the women behaved very differently towards children they were told were boys

I remember that one from our first year Psychology textbook. Parents of both genders spent twice as long talking with toddlers who they thought were girls (pink clothing), holding them close…

I was brought up in a matriarchial family, and, in my own way, I am a matriarch. I've never yet met a male speaker, in an own-tribe…

I can understand, without agreeing with the policy, why some early feminists would not allow boy babies to be brought to their meetings.*

When I…

much-loved pets

What a jolly good idea. Many need a home right now, according to 3 news tonight.

Oh Stephen C, am reading your Invisible Boy link, had to take a digestion break after a third, but so far it really hard hitting and I feel that I am learning something.

Thankyou Kowhai, I appreciate your effort. Its not an easy read.

Yes, I read it too Stephen…

01010111011010000110000101101100011001010010000001001111011010010110110000100000011010010111001100100000011000010010000001010000011011000110111101101110011010110110010101110010

Steady on, sir, there's no call for that kind of language.

telling me I was adopted

this thread has covered a huge range of stuff and I haven't kept up with it all. So sorry if this has been covered.

But do bear in mind there are also the involuntarily childless couples out there. Done the fertility treatment thing. Unsuccessfully. Dipped…

I used to think they might be read as "Baby! I'm bored".

My next door neighbour (and midwife) has that one.

Also – Baby on Board signs.

I used to think they might be read as "Baby! I'm bored". Just as long as it isn't the baby driving, they aren't too bothersome..

My wife and daughter have spent the day hauling 18+ years of stuff out of our basement (including boxes…

Porn movies work for this

Excuse me, but what happened to having sex?

Porn movies work for this

Heh. Oh lord, *there's* a birth story. 'And Sasha Grey inspired him to come into the world...'

This is apparently good also for bringing on labour if you're overdue.

Porn movies work for this – as recommended by my very knowledgeable midwife, who also provided said video at about 10 days overdue. Worked a treat ... gets all the right hormones working apparently.

This is apparently good also for bringing on labour if you're overdue.

I mostly just called him 'the parasite' for several months (much to my mother's horror).

Yeah, my wife was never that keen on me referring to her as the "vessel for my seed"...

Big baby, small baby makes no difference – it's the position that counts.

True – I would…

it's a warning of them needing extra care on account of their own driver being distracted and being more liable than average of making stupid maneuvers requiring my avoidance..

Yeah. "I'm chronically short of sleep, probably distracted by a screaming thing in the back seat, and chock full of hormones…

Also – Baby on Board signs.

... were originally a fad because of a single incident where the mother was rescued from the car but the baby wasn't noticed and died. Logically the sign should come out of the car when the baby is not on board.

Of course when…

Lego?

My parents couldn't be bothered with a middle name for me. All other siblings got variations of Maria.(catholics for ya) and Stansio, but me, well what do you put between Sofie and Bribiesca along with my Mother telling me I was adopted (when I wasn't) but that is her…

Anyone care to explain to Danielle about those "baby on board" signs we sometimes see on cars... and what they really mean.

I used to resent those signs... I felt they were trying to say they had precious cargo on board and could I please try extra hard not to…

I mostly just called him 'the parasite' for several months (much to my mother's horror).

I was informed, with no room for misunderstanding, that 'Greville Spawn' and 'Podling' were not acceptable ever. :)

I've been a good boy since that conversation. Although it has been hard finding names that we…

My other made a "Baby in Boot " sign for my car. Well, you had to be there.

No, it's already funny on spec.

Right moving on to names then?

I took to calling our bump Josh Junior, or Joju ("even if it's a girl — especially if it's a girl...") Unfortunately, this seems to have stuck among some of my friends, who don't seem to care that we actually gave him a real…

Random people would walk up to Kirsten in the supermarket and try and touch her stomach etc.

Reminds me, saw a movie other night, of course I can't remember the title, but Simon Pegg on bus touching a woman's stomach ,listening,etc.gets friend doing the same, looks up and says"I can…

Don't know about toothpaste... I suspect it helps to loosen plaque,…

I am not due until *March*

Right moving on to names then?

Heh we got into the habit of calling our friend's bumps, Otto.

Surprisingly none of them chose to name the child that?

I am not due until *March*

Right moving on to names then?

Apparently a lot of midwives get totally over Enya in the course of their work

Wonder if funeral directors tire of Eric Clapton?

Danielle, will you just have the baby please? :)

I am not due until *March*. You guys are totally screwed. I will be whining annoyingly for weeks yet.

it's not OK to tell a woman that it's illogical to grieve a less-than-ideal birth experience just because she has a healthy baby

Well, it's not OK to tell a woman anything about how she should be feeling, I suppose is the point. I just know what my (personal, not…

I remember sitting with a group of fellow new Dads, they were all talking about cutting the cord and how wonderful it was. I felt hugely guilty for finding the cord cutting hugely anti-climactic.

I made a bit of a hash of it when I did it. A couple of…

I remember hearing that Naomi Lange had lost a fetus very…

Some responses here.

WRT the judging thing, it seems to me that there may be significant overlap between one persons boundaries and another's 'just trying to help'. My wife has threatened to unleash whatever the verbal equivalent is of…

I remember sitting with a group of fellow new Dads, they were all talking about cutting the cord and how wonderful it was. I felt hugely guilty for finding the cord cutting hugely anti-climactic.

Walking new baby to sleep through…

Makes me crazy that there are such high expectations of the whole experience that anything that deviates from perfect is seen as a "bad" birth experience.

With you on that. My judgypants experience came from the nurses at National Womens after my son was born. After c20 hours' labour at…

The alarming thing about the home-birthing, was that the next door people, didn't respond to the noise by ringing the police.

Even more miraculous was that the three-year-old slept through it.

Can't believe how many times we were told that Justine couldn't eat soft cheeses, when in fact she could since we pasteurise milk used in cheese production in this country.

Dammit. You with your logic and your cheesey knowledge!

Not too long ago it was noticed that more babies were…

Who didn't bogart the Nitrous?

Bloody Dido. Honestly! That's the NHS for you.

Man, that's gruesome. You should warn people in advance, you know.

my husband is in charge of the iPod

Yeah, be careful about this. For our first child, we spent the final weeks in burning up a set of CDs for the birth experience. My wife's fond goal was to have the baby born to the sound of The Darkness- specifically,…

I agree completely with Danielle – the achievement is the lifetime that follows, not just managing to have the kid.

One of the many reasons why we enjoyed our antenatal classes so much (besides the most obvious one: no freaking birth videos!) was the fact that it focussed mostly on…

Okay, unless you were the Queen of somewhere, in which case it became a live-action event for important people.

And wouldn't that have been fun? 'OK, Queen Agatha, it's time for your confinement. Which in your case means a bunch of monocled government officials with sideburns watching while you squeeze…

But I suspect it is something to do with selfish genes and their tenacity and ability to 'guide' the mechanism that ensures their survival.

What better way than to get the parentS to consider it with awe and amazement.

It's quite a modern thing, though, at least in Western society;…

Why do people focus so much on the birth experience?

I could get into Dawkins on this.

But I suspect it is something to do with selfish genes and their tenacity and ability to 'guide' the mechanism that ensures their survival.

What better way than to get the parentS to…

Tell me why it means so much.

Jackie, I find it weird too. It's a bit like a wedding day, isn't it? Some people approach it as though if you do that one day the slightest bit 'wrong', you've buggered up some intangible karmic wotsit and have to spend the…

Also had a handy chart for the most nasty drinks for teeth. Beer and wine quite…

Rumour has it that all humans have passed…

A University of Queensland study has found that girls who experience puberty early are "significantly" more aggressive than their later developing peers by age 14.

It has also found there's no marked difference between boys' and girls' aggression levels when at the same stage of puberty.

The…

Oh, great, now it turns out I have bad saliva.

I'll take your word for that.

Mwah--> Mwah

Dyan, what are your views on using tooth paste when we brush our teeth, is it worth the while do you think?

my reading said that the paste is impt and the massage of the gums by the brush (soft) is also impt. Sorry sound to me like you have…

lol.

(In keeping with this illogical paranoia, I've given up practically everything I love to eat anyway,

Which Danielle, is exactly the right thing because you are controlling what you can control. And more importantly you are thinking about it which while making you a bit paranoid will only be for…

Could the luck of genes have something to do with it?
we have always wondered why we are so lucky!

Yep me too. Entire family (6)of why is 3 a lucky number? There is always talk of "good genes"

It would certainly cost considerably more than the home birth we had for our second child

There are many reasons for wanting to have a home birth but cost to "the system" should not be one of them. The problem is that one safe successful home birth is certainly cheaper…

If your mother was pregnant with you and was drinking a water supply that was high in (naturally occurring) minerals and a diet rich in calcium – that will give a person a big advantage to start. So soft water (rain water etc) which tastes nice…

My father ,myself, my brother and my two daughters have never had a filling. All of us were breastfed. My father grew up on an orchard with no added fluoride in the water.

Could the luck of genes have something to do with it?
we have always wondered why we…

My father ,myself, my brother and my two daughters have never had a filling. All of us were breastfed. My father grew up on an orchard with no added fluoride in the water.

Could the luck of genes have something to do with it?
we have always wondered why…

I do know that childbirth is one of the…

On the subject of elective caesarians...

mmm kinda. Not too long ago it was noticed that more babies were being born on Friday than any other day of the week in developed countries.

It turned out that the numbers were being skewed by caesarians which were massively biased away from…

If you care for evidence-based, then look at the statistics for the here and now, talk to a healthcare professional and make an informed decision without ridiculing the people who may choose to go another way. Thanks.

Ah, Ross is always right even when he's not ...

We were near…

Pasteurisation doesn't entirely rule out listeria, I understand, which can grow in fridges.

I would like to point out – with some resentment, as cold smoked seafood and deli meats are some of my favourite things, particularly in summer – that listeria infection rates in NZ average at about 25…

Dare I sugest we take another look at the death rate for new borns and the birthing mothers from the odd century ago and say "Thank You" to clean hands and evidence based medicine.

Yeah, well, when you look at your options you don't think what would be the best…

Dare I sugest we take another look at the death rate for new borns and the birthing mothers from the odd century ago and say "Thank You" to clean hands and evidence based medicine.

My family history (pre 1900) is stricken with deaths at 1…

However we didn't go the home-birth way, most CA hospitals have "home birth suites" – working with our midwife was easy and while there still is a doctor…

Giovanni, you're right, the standards are much tighter here for midwife training, though I don't know if we've got the equivalent mortality figures.

Last time I looked into it, home births in NZ had better outcomes than hospital births, although one needs to consider of course that at risk pregnancies…

One of them was heavily involved with LLL (she's the one who brought in her milk to feed her first child),…

The whole natural childbirth/la leche movement can be a bit more judgy, I've heard. No personal experience though.

We had a la leche 'specialist' in our anti-natal group, probably because multiples are notoriously more difficult, and in need of more judgy panty-ness than singletons.

Pasteurisation doesn't entirely rule out listeria, I understand, which can grow in fridges. The version of the cheese thing I settled on was that soft cheese was…

US midwives don't have good enough training to conduct homebirths, and the statistics show that it is riskier than hospitals

Not in New Zealand they don't. Why do these conversation always end up discussing how things work somewhere else? It's like the bloody cheese thing. Can't believe how many times…

Small sample?? 100% success though!!! 3 out of 3. Heh.

You can add our three (all girls) to that sample. That's 6 out of 6. Although we can't understand the teeth thing. The fluoride certainly isn't helping. And I'm not intending to start a discussion on fluoridation.

Having said this,…

And how many heart by-passes... does a c-section cost compared to a natural birth.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "none".

It would certainly cost considerably more than the home birth we had for our second child: one not-so-well-paid (but brilliant) midwife vs a theatre…

But I did need to point out Dannielle that

Maybe it's one of those weird purple ones.

Those carrots are the original…

My mother fed 5 of us until we were over our first 18 months (as she had 4 of us under 5 years at one stage, this was…

With the current lot in I reckon health performance is going to be very cost driven and experts who endorse "better outcomes through natural childbirth" are going to be much in demand.

Not if we go the way of Australia and make insurance premiums so expensive as to make the…

BFed. Breasts are best.

:-)

Small sample?? 100% success though!!! 3 out of 3. Heh.

More likely something a lot less than one, but greater than zero.

With the current lot in I reckon health performance is going to be very cost driven and experts who endorse "better outcomes through natural childbirth" are going to be much in demand.

Craig, I don't blame Betty for being unsure of leaving. Really, what are her options?

Few and none of them easy --

That's for sure – in the days Mad Men is set Betty's options would not have been that different from Anna Karenina's: if she had wanted to leave…

I recommend the drugs.

I often recommend the drugs. For someone who chose not to have kids, I have been the only person with my sister when she chose to have her naughty boy at home and I certainly needed the drugs, (oh hang on, it's about the mother not…

Craig, I don't blame Betty for being unsure of leaving. Really, what are her options?

Few and none of them easy — and she's caught in the same old hypocrisy that boys will be boys, but the girls they do it with (or any woman who aspires to the same…