Hard News: Fact and fantasy
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Sacha, in reply to
the costs and harm that result are not met by the people profiting from the risk taking
Which requires regulation to create a functioning market. Instead we get 'relaxation' in the name of progress. Go, Jetsons.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
and pay fines for the pollution – because it’s cheaper than fencing off the polluted areas.
I encountered an interesting article in the Economist a few months back, which looked at the impact that fines needed to have in order to discourage antitrust violations. The conclusion, not surprisingly, was that the fines needed to be absolutely massive, far in excess of just the opportunity benefit that might be seen from a violation.
NZ has woeful levels of financial penalties in most areas, and this is particularly true of the fines levied on businesses. Telecom has been on the receiving end of our largest fines, and not a single one has exceeded, from memory, $12m. A company with annual revenue in the billions isn't going to be swayed by an eight-digit fine, especially when it's not adjudged until many years after the fact. Similarly, wilful polluters need to not just be billed the real and actual costs of cleaning up their messes but also fined a punitive sum so large that it makes the cost of doing the right thing attractive. And if it breaks them, well, tough shit. We only get one environment, and the sympathy I have for people who are too cheap and lazy to protect it as they pursue personal profit could be measured with a very tiny micrometer.
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Sacha, in reply to
Yes, that third eye is actually quite fetching, on an older man.
bravo
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Russell Brown, in reply to
It seems that you believe too much of what you read. The science of climate continues to develop, and there is no reason for despair.
Actually, recent news suggests there is cause to be very, very concerned.
On what actual basis do you say we shouldn't be worried about the probably irreversible release of methane from Arctic permafrost?
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
Great to meet you and your other half last week too.
Yes, likewise.
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Rod Snowdon, in reply to
I agree that GMOs and pollution belong in different debates, and I really don't want to go there. Way back then I remember arguing that the perceived or real threat of GMOs to New Zealand's clean green image was nothing compared to the very real and present threat posed by New Zealanders' personal and collective lack of environmental conservation sense. Things have changed a little (rubbish sorting and recycling!) but nowhere near enough.
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Sacha, in reply to
Similarly, wilful polluters need to not just be billed the real and actual costs of cleaning up their messes but also fined a punitive sum so large that it makes the cost of doing the right thing attractive.
When Auckland was bowling many of our historic buildings in the brave 1980s, the heritage building Browns Mill was illegally destroyed overnight, resulting in a desultory $5000 fine. I recall mention of what would have happened in more enlighted Germany: the demolisher required to pay heritage experts to reassemble the building brick by brick, and then cop a hefty fine. But here that would be 'unfair' to our oppressed heroes, the developers. Let Christchurch be our example instead.
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My wife just chimed in: "Plastic supermarket bags! Even Australia does that better" (although they have a minute population density. On the other hand they're also shitting in their monstrous backyard even way worser than newziln, mate...)
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Sacha, in reply to
no one's tried grazing Herefords on permafrost tundra yet. QED.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Way back then I remember arguing that the perceived or real threat of GMOs to New Zealand’s clean green image was nothing compared to the very real and present threat posed by New Zealanders’ personal and collective lack of environmental conservation sense.
True. And there has been both some progress and some major movement in the other direction since.
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Can we have a round of applause for someone who actually is a farmer coming in and very reasonably arguing their corner?
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Rob Stowell, in reply to
Can we have a round of applause for someone who actually is a farmer coming in and very reasonably arguing their corner?
Applause! :)
(GF is not an ‘average’ farmer: but has thought about the issues and put some sweat and treasure into mitigating them. Good on ya!) -
BenWilson, in reply to
Ben Wilson agrees, and likes his style too.
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Rob Stowell, in reply to
Ben Wilson agrees, and likes his style too.
Rob Stowell is not so sure about the style- or the gender :)
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BenWilson, in reply to
Ben Wilson notes that third person is the only style incapable of hiding his gender.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
I have known West Coast dairy farmers cynically pollute local streams (whitebait havens) with shit&nitrates, and pay fines for the pollution
I had the pleasure of talking to Dr Joy about his interactions with farmers directly. If I remember him correctly he said that some older farmers were like this but most weren't. And most importantly the young farmers being taught at Massey had a completely different attitude. Even more telling when he got to talk to small groups personally they tended to "get it" and make changes but when he talked to "the industry" he got nowhere.
It wouldn't take much input from govt to get changes. But until the public put pressure on the govt nothing will happen. We really do have make ourselves heard if we want the govt to prioritise the environment.
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one tips one's hat
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
My wife just chimed in: “Plastic supermarket bags! Even Australia does that better” (although they have a minute population density. On the other hand they’re also shitting in their monstrous backyard even way worser than newziln, mate…)
Such as nuclear waste dumps.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Even more telling when he got to talk to small groups personally they tended to "get it" and make changes but when he talked to "the industry" he got nowhere.
That's heartening and saddening all in one sentence.
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Farmer Green, in reply to
I'd be happy to do that , but it is quite a big effort , which you could easily make yourself . It would involve discovering the present state of climate science, considering all sides of the arguments , and arriving at the only justifiable conclusion. All the science is available ; open minds are hard to find.
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Farmer Green, in reply to
Sorry I don’t get it. Would you like me to post the coliforms cfu/g?. I could probably find them : we sometimes do them as part of our quarterly monitoring of discharges.
Anyway please let me in on the joke. -
Definitely not an average farmer : well below average stocking rate ; almost no fertiliser use for 25 years ; well above average profitability; possibly educationally advantaged ; anything but a collectivist.
But still working (playing) 12 hour days , 7 days a week , 52 weeks a year. -
Ye Gods ! Plaudits ?
Farmer Green insists that he does little more than farm the way both his grandfathers did, with the advantage that he can understand the science which has elucidated that which was once known as husbandry. -
BenWilson, in reply to
Sorry I don’t get it.
It was hyperbole with a Simpsons reference. I don't really think you've got a mutated third eye from swimming in the Manawatu. Thanks for your contributions, was actually what I meant to say.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I’d be happy to do that , but it is quite a big effort , which you could easily make yourself . It would involve discovering the present state of climate science, considering all sides of the arguments , and arriving at the only justifiable conclusion. All the science is available ; open minds are hard to find.
I am not a scientist, let alone an active climate researcher. But I have a reasonable idea as to who is, and where I can discover reliable information on the state of the science. I'm in no doubt whatsoever as to the fact of anthropogenic global warming.
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