Hard News: Everybody's News
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, they just want it to be properly, and openly investigated by appropriately qualified engineers.
Sounds fair and reasonable to meFair and reasonable. They're useful concepts.
People I know are better qualified to comment on closing the window of doubt and the possibility of proving a negative.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
That attitude shook me and, I suppose, made me aware of a genuine undercurrent of anti-Americanism I’d never noticed before in some parts of New Zealand culture.
I didn't, and don't, 'get' that attitude. How did the people in the towers - the secretaries, the barristas, the cleaners, the dish pigs, amongst all the other office drones - deserve that, any more than the goatherds, the wedding parties, and all the other working shmoes around the world who were just trying to get by before some thugs with weapons and a bad attitude turned up?
If you want to round up all the Rumsfelds, Kissingers, Roves, Blairs, et al and stick a gun in my hand, then I'll gladly face the moral dilemma of handing out a bit of extra judicial justice, but seriously? Stop fighting a proxy war and wind your fucking necks in, morons.
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Marcus Turner, in reply to
If you want to round up all the Rumsfelds, Kissingers, Roves, Blairs, et al and stick a gun in my hand, then I’ll gladly face the moral dilemma of handing out a bit of extra judicial justice, but seriously? Stop fighting a proxy war and wind your fucking necks in, morons.
Rich: I doubt this line of argument will encourage anyone toward your way of thinking.
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I remember watching the whole attack unfolding on TV in a North East Valley flat in 2001. The next few days after, there were the campus debates. An Arab student urging calm when he wasn’t choking back tears, a stereotypical firebrand effectively saying America had it coming, a couple of defensive American students who likely had nothing to do with their nation’s military policy.
Like the anti-Grauniad vitriol, things weren’t particularly nuanced initially, and it was significant that the said Arab student was the most nuanced of the speakers on that day.
Not every American is Dubya, and a lot of our fellow citizens in NZ seem to forget that. If anything I tend to look at America through the lens of the red-blue state divide.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
Marcus: I'm not actually all that concerned about bringing someone who would happily lump 300 million people into the same basket and use the deaths of thousands to make a point about 'having it coming' round to my way of thinking.
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Marcus Turner, in reply to
One wonders then why you posted. If indeed there are people who
would happily lump 300 million people into the same basket and use the deaths of thousands to make a point
we can only hope that they'll change their point of view before ever achieving a position of influence or power. I'd certainly like to help people to stop thinking in such dichotomous - and damaging - ways. Telling people how bad they are - particularly using violent language - isn't a productive way to begin, and it may not do much to enhance one's own self-image, either.
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On the day I remember coming home from training and watching stuff on the TV news. At the time I looked at my intended and “oh gosh the Muslims are f****d and especially the Palestinians”.
That April I went to New York to visit friends and got a chance to look down into what was a very big hole, the scale of it was quite shocking. I also remember the black helicopters sitting over the Hudson, watching and waiting for something. In the continuing confusion it was remarkably easy for me to come and go from the US. How things change.
Our old neighbourhood in Sheffield was very mixed and until then pretty easy going; afterwards the divide appeared. When the sitting MP for our ward voted for the Iraq war against a clear no mandate from across the whole area, I was indignant at first, then worried. Our neighbourhood started to get a little more sinister. Within two years, by the time my wife and I hold sold up to come to NZ things had got very sinister indeed; my wife for the first time in many years felt unsafe running on her own in the evenings. Meanwhile UK citizens without objection suffered a catastrophic loss of rights.
Two years after the original event I made a second trip via the US as part of a honeymoon trip; my travel experience was such that I now regard it as too risky and unpleasant to set foot in the US while these issues continue. My only sin against the US nation has been to be born in the Middle East and to have protested outside the Whitehouse with the Palestinians in 1988 (I also have a record of activism in the UK). My belongings and baggage were munted from searching after 2 stopovers and there is only so much embarrassment I will suffer as a result of being the only white guy in a ”random” search line.
Loss of rights, friends and opportunities, yes there is much to reflect on in days like these.
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I flew out of Auckland airport en-route to LAX and Seattle via UA 842 on Sep 11 (NZ Time). It was a special fight - the captain was retiring - so the 747 was showered from the airport fire engines as we pushed back from the gate. It was a normal flight with nothing out of the ordinary until we were woken to find the plane descending rapidly, and an announcement from the crew to prepare for landing. Looked out the window to see palm trees, and an environment that didn't look like California.
Once on the ground someone boarded the plane and made an announcement. We were in Hawaii, there had been a terrorist attack, and all flights were grounded. After a quick hustle off the plane and through customs they herded us through the deserted terminal. Military fighters were patrolling the airspace. We didn't get much information until reaching a hotel a couple of hours later. Spent most of the day watching cable channels. Honolulu was very quiet for 2-3 days with many shops closed. After a few days some sites reopened so I visited the Arizona memorial in Pearl Harbor.
Got back to NZ after a week. A rather dislocating experience, especially for my wife who awoke to news that some United Airlines flights had been deliberately crashed. I didn't fly back to the USA for two years after that.
Could have been worse though - at least we weren't grounded in Newfoundland!
The biggest curse that has arisen in the USA since is the dreadful TSA.
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This attack, warned Barlow, could be the burning of the Reichstag - the event that the Nazi Party seized on to cement its power in the 1930s.
the nascent that would grow into the TSA was already in force
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
People I know are better qualified to comment on closing the window of doubt and the possibility of proving a negative.
I'm a little thick today, you're gonna have to explain that to me...
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Carol Stewart, in reply to
I think we may be on the same page
I sure hope so, Ian, but I don't have any enthusiasm for relitigating the collapse of the twin towers, given that, you know, Al Qaeda took credit for it and there was a ton of evidence implicating them. Occams razor and all that.
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Danielle, in reply to
made me aware of a genuine undercurrent of anti-Americanism I’d never noticed before in some parts of New Zealand culture
My father - who, it must be said, was not hugely into appeasement - was called a "Yankee bastard" pretty regularly when he lived here in the 70s and 80s. My husband often says it's good for him to teach in south Auckland because it's one of the few places in NZ that Americans aren't completely unpopular. He is often asked if he knew Tupac. :)
The September 11 tale: I was in Houston, at home before classes, watching an old episode of WKRP in Cincinnati (I seem to recall it was an episode about the station's building being demolished, appositely enough). My then-fiance rang from where he was substitute teaching to tell me to change the channel. I didn't go in to university that day because there were rumours that "they" would go for other large cities (Houston is the fourth-largest in the country) or even NASA for the symbolism. We got married later that year in Vegas and I still remember all the graffiti/tributes outside the New York New York hotel - it seemed so perfectly American, both heartfelt and hugely tacky. (With a few friends, we made some quiet probably-too-soon jokes about the hotel soon instituting daily mini-plane-crashes into the mini-Twin-Towers.)
(Tangentially, I don't think it's exactly a blue-state/red-state divide [even in Texas, a very "red state", more than one in three people votes Democrat]. It's an urban/rural divide more than anything else.)
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
unburdened by proof...
Occam's razor and all that.
I don't know that the case has been litigated fully in the first place, but that aside my main interest is in the physics of the affair, and I expected better from the home of the Forensic Investigation extravaganza, it was never treated as a crime scene. WTC 7 has never been explained as far as I can see, why would the penthouse fall in to the building and all the supports - building wide - give way simultaneously, and after only a few hours of burning of one corner of a steel framed building - it collapsed at freefall speed into its own footprint, I couldn't believe it on the day and still don't. All I want is someone to explain how, credibly. Whether that be someone from Al Qaeda's engineering division or elsewhere I don't mind...
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Good luck with it all, Ian - whatever floats your boat (or melts your external superstructure) ;-)
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
Chaos mate.
Anyway, the whole CSI thing is (like most other stuff) fiction designed to support an entirely different narrative, that of the infallibility of law enforcement in detecting and charging perps. In reality, those low count PCR things are equally likely to result in a match to the bloke who had a blow job in the toilet from a girl who bought an NZ Pure from a barperson whose day job is an ESR lab assistant but was a bit slack on washing her hands that morning.
Truly.
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Here goes Ian: They were steel framed with steel beams from the outside to the inner core. Lots of concrete in the flooring as well. When a few 100 tonnes of fuel explode inside open plan offices a fair bit of wind is created. You saw the flames shooting out after the explosions. This wind took away the asbestos fire prtotection from the steel beams. I mena blew it off. Taking that protection off meant that quite low temperatures are now required to soften it. It softens, some beam/ flooring falls off/breaks off their perches and fall to the next floor. This happens over a couple of floors and within a short time, begins to transfer enormous loads to beams and floors below that cannot sustain them. Once that first bunch falls with an amount of momentum behind it (above it really) it crashes onto the next floor. Once started a pattern begins. One floor pancaking onto the next, squashing the air within each floor and jetting it out sideways creating the neat puffs (pseudo explosions) that precede each floors collapse.
(Edit: Did you notice these little puffs DID NOT occur above the floors where the plane hit? How did the building "know" where it was going to be hit?)
Incredibly, although some may find it amazingly coincidental, the construction of the building was such that if it DID start to collapse, the outside steel contained the collapse practically (nearly) within the confines of the footprint. Yes, they did break off once the floors shot past but even at ground level the sides did their job remarkably well as there were quite a few still standing.
Have you ever seen concrete collapse literally into dust? You have on a minor scale in February just down the road from you. If you have mixed concrete you will recall there is not much to it. A few buckets of sand (small), a shovel full of cement (really really small) and some gravel (smallish). To expect a ton (or lots of tones) of concrete to survive hundreds of feet of fall and not shatter into billions of dust particles is being a wee bit naive.
The potential energy from tonnes and tonnes of concrete dropping from hundreds of feet is enormous. If it all stops at the bottom enormous amounts of kinetic energy of the falling bits is converted into enormous amounts of heat. Temperatures rise, fires start.
There is no doubt a shit load of this rubble collapsed into and onto building 7. Fires just set the collapse off. Again, sustained heat does a shit load of damage.
The CTV building smouldering for days gives a small hint. But I doubt there was sufficient energy conversion to start fires but I may be mistaken.
No. IMHO, there is no doubt it was an outside job. Well planned, executed and more than fulfilled the designers hopes and dreams.
I am just sad that some folk decided to do it. But if you feel you are a patriot to your homeland that had been "invaded and/or influenced" (Saudi Arabia) by another (USA) then no bounds to your actions need necessarily be applied.
What the idiotic yanks did after that was even more appalling. Completely and totally alienating themselves throughout the world.
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3410,
watching an old episode of WKRP in Cincinnati
Is there any other kind? ;)
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Danielle, in reply to
True fact: there was a 90s spinoff series called The New WKRP in Cincinnati. (I wasn't watching it on September 11, 2001, though.)
One of my favourite things ever: "the senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity".
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Ever so slightly thread-jacking this discussion, but apropos of someone's point earlier about the dangers of simple dichotomies, I just read a review of a book on typography (stop yawning at the back) which was followed by comment thread almost as civilised as the ones on this site, even though it included topics as diverse as Wagner, Hitler, the VW Beetle and Eric Gill. Maybe there's hope for humanity's prospects of surviving after all.
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nzlemming, in reply to
I never knew you were a type nerd too. We rule, buddy.
EDIT: FTA " This dichotomy, to one degree or another, is the essence of the human nature." Words to live by. You're right, great discussion.
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3410,
True fact: there was a 90s spinoff series called The New WKRP in Cincinnati.
Jeez! You're right. I'd totally forgotten about that.
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Kracklite, in reply to
Nicely said.
Every building contains within it the energy of its own demolition. All the energy that was required to lift the mass of its own material to its upper levels lies there, waiting. When something fails, all that energy will suddenly be released again and that energy will drive the destruction of the building overall.
Just to add, and I know that this will never convince some conspiracy theorists (which really does a disservice to the word “theory”), steel does not suddenly fail catastrophically at its melting point, it weakens substantially before that point once it is heated and softened.
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TracyMac, in reply to
Thank you for this. I got the whole conspiracy-theory bollocks from a previous co-worker of mine, and he would simply not STFU when you pointed out the simple logic - Occam's Razor indeed - of how the buildings would fail. I even did a demo by putting some heavy objects into a stack of cardboard boxes and then dropping a heavy weight on top. They pancaked quite appreciably before toppling over... and they didn't have a girder framework inside channelling the kinetic energy pretty much vertically.
Also, perhaps it was obvious to me because I saw the thing live on TV from about 10 mins before the second plane crashed into its building - University of London fibre network with massive internet pipes to Europe AND the US meant no appreciable lag with sites like the Beeb and even CNN for much of the day. You could not watch the impacts real-time and not see how the collapses occurred.
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I was at work, but there was a television in the drivers lounge. When I looked up and saw the the plane going into the tower, I thought it was a movie. Then I realized it was happening for real. Everything changed after that. You normally could hear the planes flying over my home, but we did not hear planes for days after that, it was just quiet. Everyone in the United States who were old enough will remember where they were at the time they heard the news.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
One wonders then why you posted. If indeed there are people who
would happily lump 300 million people into the same basket and use the deaths of thousands to make a point we can only hope that they'll change their point of view before ever achieving a position of influence or power. I'd certainly like to help people to stop thinking in such dichotomous - and damaging - ways. Telling people how bad they are - particularly using violent language - isn't a productive way to begin, and it may not do much to enhance one's own self-image, either.True, true. But I guess we're all entitled to the ocassional pissy little rant on the internet (where do I get my loyalty card stamped?).
Although my self-image needs no enhancing, thank you.
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