Hard News: Chaos in Kingsland
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Craig, are you saying Baiter is "non-partisan" or Garner is?
Garner's an equal opportunity offender when it comes to over-sexed up 'gotcha' stories.
And in related news, a Herald editorial correctly assesses the legitimate influence of a minor player
So, could you remind me exactly what electoral mandate the eHerald on Sunday secured last year? Oh, that's right -- none at all. Therefore, the HoS's editorial chunterings can be safely ignored. Thanks for clearing that up, folks.
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Oooh, double high dudgeon, Craig. Fabulous.
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It's a newspaper, not a political party - although sometimes I agree it's hard to tell. When the Herald is next claiming to have the right to gut local government without further ado, we can continue this conversation.
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As tough as politics can get, I must admit I felt a tinge of sorrow (just a tinge) for M.Lee on prime news to night. Sad that she seemed to accept her defeat all by herself. Key was having a holiday in Taupo and I guess he felt it wasn't important enough to be around for the Nats yesterday or all of last week for that matter. In saying that I am tres pleased for David Shearer and I liked the 'arold report about him today.
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As tough as politics can get, I must admit I felt a tinge of sorrow (just a tinge) for M.Lee on prime news to night. Sad that she seemed to accept her defeat all by herself. Key was having a holiday in Taupo and I guess he felt it wasn't important enough to be around for the Nats yesterday or all of last week for that matter.
Likewise. She didn't run a good campaign but I suspect she's a better MP than this byelection revealed. I have some sympathy for her too, though like you I'm very happy with the outcome, and am surprised by the lack of support from her Leader.
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Likewise. She didn't run a good campaign but I suspect she's a better MP than this byelection revealed.
Well I don't think she is a better MP but I do believe the leaders should support their candidates on the night.I think her campaign was a disaster because of the non existent cohesion that rears it's head every so often in her party. Her gaffes were her having no grasp on what was happening inside her own party. I actually think she thought that Key popularity is all that is needed, and a few buzzwords would get them through. Like I said at the beginning, I thought and still do think she was a familiar talking head for the Asian community,and Mt Albert has an ever increasing Asian community.At the end though we have David saying listen to the people, it's about community.That's what people want to hear.Not Ahh ahh, oh, ahh, my party is wonderful, It's not about you.Key dropped her like a hot potato, not nice.
For Craig, this is just my opinion. -
Oooh, double high dudgeon, Craig. Fabulous.
Well, Jackie, I think I'm perfectly entitled to raise an eyebrow at an unelected and unaccountable newspaper editorial writer pontificating on the "legitimacy" of people you might not like, but who actually have to submit to the will of electors every three years,
Just as I don't think David Shearer's "legitimacy" is in any way shape or form affected by the fact the turnout was less than 50% of qualified voters. I'd certainly slap any pundit who suggests otherwise upside the head with the stupid stick.
When the Herald is next claiming to have the right to gut local government without further ado, we can continue this conversation.
No, if The Herald wants to share with us the magical tipping point where duly elected representatives become magically "legitimate" , we shall definitely continue this conversation. Meanwhile, it is perfectly entitled to opine as it sees fit on matters of public policy, but perhaps it could find a more stable patch of moral high ground to posture on.
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Craig, surely you can grasp the basic injustice in a party with a few percent of the vote wagging the governing dog?
At the last election, voters were not told that National would buddy up with Act to rip the guts out of local government, were they? There is absolutely no mandate for that change and they are trying to ram it through undemocratically now - as the Herald editorial and other journos have pointed out since Rodney's pet Cabinet paper was released.
It's the media's job to call attention to such abuses of governance. Trying to treat a newspaper the same as a political party is just farcical, no matter how much you may dislike what they're drawing attention to.
You'd be outraged if a Labour-led government tried anything similar, and I thought you were a man of principle. You're better than this, and you know it.
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<applause>
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Like I said at the beginning, I thought and still do think she was a familiar talking head for the Asian community,and Mt Albert has an ever increasing Asian community.At the end though we have David saying listen to the people, it's about community.That's what people want to hear.Not Ahh ahh, oh, ahh, my party is wonderful, It's not about you.Key dropped her like a hot potato, not nice.
All fair comment.
I guess what I mean is that Lee's new, young and inexperienced and a tough byelection complicated by major issues like transport are a difficult test. I don't think she's terribly substantial but I do think she's an improvement on the likes of Neeson, Simich or even Christine Fletcher. Perhaps we've seen both the best and worst of her. I can't help but recall what Mark Thomas went through in 1996 ~ he was a far more experienced but still new candidate, a far smarter operator who still got totally stuffed by the conveniences of the day. If you could swap them but, Thomas has a lot more to offer than Lee.
But still, I'm wrapped for Mt Albert that they've elected Shearer. Clark was always going to be impossible to replace, but in Shearer they've clearly got an impressive representative.
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I can't help but recall what Mark Thomas went through in 1996 ~ he was a far more experienced but still new candidate, a far smarter operator who still got totally stuffed by the conveniences of the day. If you could swap them but, Thomas has a lot more to offer than Lee.
There is considerable irony in the fact that Mark Thomas was Lee's campaign manager. History never repeats, but it sure as hell echos.
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Craig, surely you can grasp the basic injustice in a party with a few percent of the vote wagging the governing dog?
Sacha: I've grasped that first past the post died a very slow death a long time ago. A very large chunk of the commentariat really need to pick up the pace on their grieving process, or at least start dealing with reality even when its not to their liking.
I thought you were a man of principle. You're better than this, and you know it.
And one day you're finally going to stop being quite so patronising, or at least turn your psychic abilities towards something I've got some use for. Big Wednesday numbers, perhaps?
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It's the media's job to call attention to such abuses of governance. Trying to treat a newspaper the same as a political party is just farcical, no matter how much you may dislike what they're drawing attention to.
The real farce here is that I'm apparently expected to treat the editorial board of the Herald on Sunday -- or some fanciful "consensus" of political commentators -- as some kind of holy writ that is beyond question.
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There is considerable irony in the fact that Mark Thomas was Lee's campaign manager. History never repeats, but it sure as hell echos.
Was he? Really. I didn't know that. Hell!
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There is absolutely no mandate for that change and they are trying to ram it through undemocratically now - as the Herald editorial and other journos have pointed out since Rodney's pet Cabinet paper was released.
Mandate? This isn't Imperial China; a mandate in New Zealand is a majority in the House, which, like it or not, Hide has. OK, he didn't get that majority directly, but then, neither did Jim Anderton or Winston Peters. `Mandates' are fuzzy and I don't much like them, to be honest. There's no evidence anybody mislead the electorate about what they wanted to do, and the Herald declaring that a democratically elected majority in Parliament doesn't have the right to do something seems a bad precedent to set.
Now, the process Hide is going through isn't exactly in the spirit of open and democratic governance, but it still wouldn't be if it were Coleman or Joyce doing it.
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I don't recall Anderton or Peters doing anything significant that they and Labour had not first told the public about and even taken to an election explicitly.
That's all a mandate means to me - some form of relevant delegated permission from voters, not a three yearly blank cheque nor a more refined historical concept.
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I know it's quibbly but can I please put in a word (2, actually) for correct useage:
RAPT
and
FAZE
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Russell, how did your son enjoy his first voting experience?
It was very cool. I'll blog it today.
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Well, Jackie, I think I'm perfectly entitled to raise an eyebrow at an unelected and unaccountable newspaper editorial writer pontificating on the "legitimacy" of people you might not like, but who actually have to submit to the will of electors every three years,
You are perfectly entitled, but don't expect anyone to join in that bizarre line of argument. "Pontificating" on politics and other matters is what we expect newspaper editorial writers to do, isn't it? Are you really saying that the fact they are not elected undermines their authority in doing so?
And FWIW, the editorial wasn't venturing on the "legitimacy" of Hide's place in Parliament, or as a coalition partner, but on the limits of the mandate he enjoys.
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I don't recall Anderton or Peters doing anything significant that they and Labour had not first told the public about and even taken to an election explicitly.
Some would suggest the EFA (NZF had a specific policy of not making major changes to to electoral law without public support).
I would suggest the Foreshore and Seabed Act.
Others might raise this, said by Helen Clark before the election:
I do not support a ban on smacking. I am opposed to that because I think it defies human nature. ...
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You are perfectly entitled, but don't expect anyone to join in that bizarre line of argument.
I'd be on a hiding to nothing to expect anyone to agree with me on anything around here. I don't appreciate being accused of arguing in bad faith, however, and don't see why anyone should.
And FWIW, the editorial wasn't venturing on the "legitimacy" of Hide's place in Parliament, or as a coalition partner, but on the limits of the mandate he enjoys.
Meanwhile, Russell, I think I can predict who is going to question David Shearer's "mandate" to have a view on anything at all on the back of a low turnout in a by-election. Perhaps I can save some time and say that's just dumb? He's a duly elected Member of Parliament, and that's that.
Meanwhile, I know the Herald stable doesn't have much time for MMP or those impertinent 'minor' parties who don't exist just to make up the numbers. But I sure didn't recall you wasting much time fuming about Jim Anderton's "limited mandate" as a Minister whose party couldn't crack 2% of the party vote, as opposed to fisking his, shall we say, less than helpful contributions to drug policy.
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth I don't believe a Cabinet paper is the same thing as legislation -- which still requires the assent of a majority of the House before becoming law.
Are you really saying that the fact they are not elected undermines their authority in doing so?
Well, I find it a rather strange line of attack from a 'brand' that ultimately draws what authority it has from the effective monopoly position its daily stable mate has in New Zealand's largest media market. And whose senior editorial staff face nothing more than the rather eccentric mandate of the marketplace.
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I'd be on a hiding to nothing to expect anyone to agree with me on anything around here. I don't appreciate being accused of arguing in bad faith, however, and don't see why anyone should.
You know I wasn't saying that. It was just an odd line of argument.
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You know I wasn't saying that.
Sorry, you're quite right. But Sacha did go there, and it got my hackles up.
It was just an odd line of argument.
OK, we're probably going to have to agree to disgaree with that. I just thought it was peculiar of Sacha to highlight a rather weak argument from the HoS, because in an MMP environment you can throw that "weak mandate" sneer around a lot. I don't think its particularly helpful, or less than hypocritical from newspaper leader writers -- or radio commentators :) -- who don't face any electoral discipline at all, as opposed to the more nebulous judgement of the ratings.
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On a slightly more cheerful note, who'd rather be in Mount Albert than Tehran right now? I know its just not about us, but its a reminder how we take free, fair and credible elections (and no riots in the streets afterwards) for granted.
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Sorry for the thread jack, but several hundred British police detectives are facing allegations that they pulled off the impossible and made British MPs look good by comparison
More than 300 elite Scotland Yard detectives are suspected of defrauding the taxpayer of millions of pounds by abusing their corporate credit cards, the Observer can disclose.
Auditors who have examined the American Express accounts of 3,500 officers involved in countering terrorism and organised crime have reported almost one in 11 detectives to the Metropolitan Police's internal investigators.
Ouch...
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