Field Theory: Testosterone and the running woman
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Lets say, hypothetically, that Semenya has a hormone disorder which makes her a faster runner.
Then why are women's athletics not already dominated by women with unusually-high testosterone levels?
Is it beacuse this abnormal testosterone level occurs so rarely?
Or because unusually high testosterone levels are just one factor among many that contribute to winning performance?
This isn't a rhetorical question, if anyone has insight into this I'd love to know.
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Is it beacuse this abnormal testosterone level occurs so rarely?
Or because unusually high testosterone levels are just one factor among many that contribute to winning performance?
I would surmise that people with disorders of sexual development are no more likely than anyone else to have all the other factors that make you a top athlete in their favour (e.g. time, support, funding, motivation, body type). Even if abnormally high testosterone was a ticket to success, I can't imagine all those things would come together very often.
Besides, your average man won't beat a good female runner, even with his testosterone advantage. On its own, it doesn't mean anything.
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why youse all hatin' on her?
Because they spent a lot of money getting her to play in Auckland when they could've got someone really good (well maybe not really good but better than Kournikova).
I suppose I should be a little bit nicer, she is often used as the example of non-success despite fame and there are much better examples.
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Besides, your average man won't beat a good female runner, even with his testosterone advantage. On its own, it doesn't mean anything.
Yep, but the NZ mens' 100m record is an unremarkable 10.11 --- still nearly half a second faster than any woman in history has ever run, and more, given that the first two on the list (FloJ and Marion Jones) took drugs to boost their muscle mass.
The testosterone is an insurmountable advantage when you get to people who actually run competitively.
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Not to dig this back up, but I just read an interesting blog post about variance of height in human populations. It was titled "Human morphological variation: height & weight" so it does contains a few long words I had to look up.
We find that humans show low levels of within-population body height variation in comparison to body length variation in other animals. Humans do not, however, show distinctive levels of within-population body mass variation, nor of among-population body height or mass variation.
In other words, it is particularly in the domain of variance in heights within populations where humans are atypical. The authors suggest that selective forces are driving human populations toward phenotypic optimums, and we inhabit a "rugged adaptive landscape." That is, in some places it pays to be short, and in others it pays to be tall.
So body shape is atypically variable in humans, meaning that long legs, arms, torsos etc are not so uncommon. Now I just need to find a study comparing the within-population variance for gender and we'll be done!
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Semenya a hermaphrodite, screams the Herald.
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Simon - you just beat me to it. I had the Daily Mail screaming "Gender-row runner Caster Semenya 'is a hermaphrodite with no womb or ovaries'"
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Graeme - fair enough, but your headline is a lot more sensationalist than mine so you get bonus points there.
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The stuff story seemed to indicate that she couldn't be banned, because it's not drug cheating, it's a medical issue.
And that it might be possible that 2nd place getter would also get gold. It sounded like they were guessing and making it up.
I would have thought international sporting bodies would have had policies on hermaphroditism. Is this the first time it's come up in the modern sporting world?
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I find it hard to see what the fuss is about. They can't very well have a hermaphrodite games, so if she wants to consider herself a woman, that's where it ends. Maybe it's unfair on the other women, but so is failing to be of 'athletic build', and they don't legislate a special games for that.
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The Herald, in all it's wisdom, has allowed a "your views" thread on the topic.
Surprisingly, it's mostly pretty mild... for now. However, there is one gem:
Telsh@r (United States of America)
0 minutes ago
Sorry but if she kept the medal it would only serve to justify cheating in the future. Three times the amount of testoserone then a 'normal woman' means her body naturally hormone dopes all the time.Leaving sexism comments aside the hormone differences are the reason why men don't race against women. What's the point of seperation in races if it isn't based on the groups hormone levels and biochemistry.
It has nothing to do with it being the 'correct genitalia' and everything to do with the hormones made by those genitalia. If she keeps the gold what's to stop someone from having testies sown into there body for an advantage
*headdesk*
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I'm really fucking angry at the Herald for repeating what seem to be incredibly false claims made in the Telegraph, but hiding behind "reports". Fucking hacks.
Science of Sport as always should be the first port of call on this (a sports scientist AND a South African): on the "leaks" and on Semenya and testosterone.
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I don't understand though, cos Stuff's Sydney Morning Herald story is quoting an IAAF spokesperson - though possibly completely out of context?
"This is a medical issue and not a doping issue where she was deliberately cheating," an IAAF spokesman, Nick Davies, told the Sydney Morning Herald.
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Pitching is about deceiving the batter into swinging for a ball at the wrong time or place, and increased muscle mass isn't going to help that.
Not so sure about that...increased muscle mass can be linked to increased muscle control too. I say this because, as a long time goalkeeper, I found the really strong shooters in my sport (waterpolo) were also generally the most deceptive. The reason? Anyone can make a really slow shot look fast with appropriate trickery. But only really strong people can make a fast shot look slow and easy. Only they can add spin and other tricks to a shot that is already as hard as most other players can throw it. Extra power also makes for extra accuracy, it seemed, because there is spare power for control. But I agree, generally it's not the muscle mass, it's the training that makes for good shooters.
Longevity is not something that can be replicated with muscle-training at the gym, at least not with a day-to-day sport like baseball or even football, basketball or cricket.
That's definitely controversial. Most professional athletes do extra gym-training, so it's hard to get a baseline. Certainly in the off-season gym work is very good for retaining muscle, or even building on it. Put it this way, it's a much better base to be working off than having to waste time in-season accumulating that muscle. It's a fairly "safe" training method, by which I mean it doesn't draw so many injuries as sport, and having bonus muscle can protect you from injury as you reenter intensive sports training building up to a competition.
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Pitching is about deceiving the batter into swinging for a ball at the wrong time or place, and increased muscle mass isn't going to help that.
Quite the contrary in fact - in both pitching and batting the weight and the strength of the player is enormously important. You have to be both heavy and strong to throw/hit something very fast/hard. A fastball can only be thrown by someone with big heavy bones and strong muscles.
The curve ball is a weird interplay between velocity, lateral deviation and drag: speed (ie strength and weight on the part of the pitcher) is definitely required for the spin to work properly. Inertia and all that. With a curveball it also helps to be a southpaw, assuming the batter is right- handed.
Here's a fascinating article on the physics of pitching -
But on the subject of Caster Semenya - there is really no way she can compete against women - as she is not a woman. And she doesn't have a hormone imbalance or any kind of disorder - she is not female, and yes that different physiology confers much more than a just a genetic advantage.
She seems hearteningly comfortable with herself - the controversy this has stirred up would be hard to take.
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But on the subject of Caster Semenya - there is really no way she can compete against women - as she is not a woman. And she doesn't have a hormone imbalance or any kind of disorder - she is not female...
Whoa, where did that info come from?
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__But on the subject of Caster Semenya - there is really no way she can compete against women - as she is not a woman. And she doesn't have a hormone imbalance or any kind of disorder - she is not female.__.
Whoa, where did that info come from?
The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) have (according to the news reports) found her to be intersex.
I'm not familiar with the IAAF or how they operate - are they likely to have falsified test results for some reason?
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Whoa, where did that info come from?
The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) have (according to the news reports) found her to be intersex.
I'm not familiar with the IAAF or how they operate - are they likely to have falsified test results for some reason?
The IAAF will release it's findings to Semenya first and in November, until such time all reports are unsubstantiated leaks. Moreover the IAAF has policies on intersex athletes and she may have one of the many conditions allowable under those rules (as discussed in the original post)
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The IAAF will release it's findings to Semenya first and in November, until such time all reports are unsubstantiated leaks.
I stand corrected - my apoolgies. The news reports I (mis) heard on the radio sounded like they had test results that classified her as hermaphrodite.
Moreover the IAAF has policies on intersex athletes and she may have one of the many conditions allowable
None of those would confer anything like the (athletic) advantage of going through puberty with typically male levels of androgens, so I see why they would be allowed.
Intersex people are beginning to reject the idea that they need to be assigned a gender, and the wider acceptance of this is a good thing in society.
However, if someone who is intersex and has gone through puberty with those very high (ie typically male) levels of androgen that give a person physically male muscle:fat composition (to single out only one thing) then I can't see how they can fairly compete against women in sport.
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However, if someone who is intersex and has gone through puberty with those very high (ie typically male) levels of androgen that give a person physically male muscle:fat composition (to single out only one thing) then I can't see how they can fairly compete against women in sport.
In much the same way that someone who has any other 'natural' advantage can. Being a naturally man-sized woman is an advantage on, say, a basketball court. Just because they are freakishly few and far between does not mean they should not be allowed.
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In much the same way that someone who has any other 'natural' advantage can. Being a naturally man-sized woman is an advantage on, say, a basketball court. Just because they are freakishly few and far between does not mean they should not be allowed.
But women aren't just smaller versions of men. There are a lot of differences between the sexes.
Women have less bone density, less muscle mass, higher body fat to muscle ratios, finer tendons and ligaments, narrower heels (influences foot-strike, momentum etc), smaller V02 max, greater Q-angle (wider angle where the knee bone connects to the thigh bone because of the wider pelvis). Add to that the presence of estrogen during puberty will influence the gynoid pattern of fat distribution (ie. breasts, hips and butts are fleshier on women than men, which will influence speed). Also fact the higher levels of estrogen in women means greater ligament laxity. Which is great when we give birth, but not so great when dealing with impact, if we want to avoid injury, and a distinct disadvantage against someone who does not have such hormonal cycles.
Differences between the sexes are much more than just size, muscle mass and bone density.
Women have a distinct advantage in cold water distance swimming though.
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But women aren't just smaller versions of men. There are a lot of differences between the sexes.
By man-sized, I was pretty much meaning "a naturally superior female athlete in every dimension that men tend to be superior". Which is not every dimension, of course. Men can't match women in some sporting events. But in the sports where men excel, there are many women who have an extraordinarily naturally apt physique. Because of this, they tend to resemble men in some ways (since we are talking about sports in which men's physiques make them superior). I think that seeking to find ways to rule these women out of the competition is every bit as unfair as seeking to rule out men who have the same blessings. They will be rare women. They will be unusual women. But they are still women. I guess this controversy is about whether she was a woman before, and changed, but is hiding it, or if she was a man before, and changed, and is hiding it. If she is neither a man nor a woman, and has never changed it, and is hiding nothing, then I think her choice figures highly.
Intersex people are beginning to reject the idea that they need to be assigned a gender, and the wider acceptance of this is a good thing in society.
Sure, but "not needing to be assigned a gender" is different to "not being allowed a gender". Especially since gender could be considered quite a different thing to sex.
I do agree that she needs to be evaluated though, I change my mind on this. But it doesn't seem like testosterone levels will be enough evidence.
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Men can't match women in some sporting events.
Just curious, what sports are these?
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I think that seeking to find ways to rule these women out of the competition is every bit as unfair as seeking to rule out men who have the same blessings. They will be rare women. They will be unusual women. But they are still women.
If the leaked test results are true then she is technically not a woman. Not being a woman and having enormously high levels of testosterone certainly does give an individual athletic advantages over women who are physically female, in almost all sporting events, especially if that testosterone has influenced everything from the V02 max to the Q-angle. Even the size of the heart, lungs, kidneys etc.
But all this must be incredibly harrowing for this poor young woman. SA sporting officials should have anticipated this, done this screening privately long before she was entered in any kind of competition. It's not like this hasn't come up in sport before.
__Men can't match women in some sporting events.__
Just curious, what sports are these?Ultra distance running (longer distances than 45- 50 km at a time) and long distance swimming in cold water.
And little girls will crush any other member of our species when it comes to strength to weight ratio. There's a good reason female gymnasts are not grown women.
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This article may be of interest:
There are four ways of determining sex, said Dr Peter Bowen-Simpkins, of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. The problem is that they can be at odds with one another. Chromosomal sex is defined by x and y chromosomes. The default position for mammals is that they will develop as females unless there is y chromosome present. In one rare condition, androgen insensitivity syndrome, the body is insensitive to the male hormone and develops to become a woman.
"It's very complex area," said Bowen-Simpkins, a consultant gynaecologist. "The male hormone is what gives bulk to muscles and bones so they are at an advantage. I have seen pictures of this girl and she has no waist and very masculine musculature."
As many as one in 3,000 are born with some kind of intersex disorder. "Some people are brought up as females even though they have no uterus or vagina. The sporting bodies don't have an agreed definition of sex. Cases like this may force them to define this particular issue.
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