I hadn't seen that before, and it is interesting. Still don't think it's an issue until/unless that happens.

Once it happens its too late. If people aren't allowed to compete in a particular competition, due to concerns about their gender, they should be told now, up front.

Otherwise you'll get…

Yeah that's the one. Given that she's taken 16 seconds off her PB in a year, that last two seconds to the world record probably isn't too unlikely in the next five years.

I hadn't seen that before, and it is interesting. Still don't think it's an issue until/unless that…

I can't find the graph that I saw a while ago (Hadyn might have linked to it?), but it showed how her results have improved drastically over the past year.

This one? (part way down)

Men can't match women in some sporting events.

Just curious, what sports are these?

Tennis?

I think this is terribly sad that anybody let alone an 18yr old is subject…

"it's unfortunate for women because hermaphrodites have a huge advantage".

I ask again – if Semenya has this huge and insurmountable advantage that means she is ineligible to compete with women, how come her times are squarely in the middle of the range of the top female times for the…

womenshooters

Islander

You just triggered my brain about Annie Oakley the first American woman to become an international superstar, I love the fact she was prepared to challenge male assumptions about women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSTSNq5dOM

I'm amazed if it is true that women are better shots than men in general. Do you have some evidence? Some things about that just seem a bit unlikely – firstly men have generally better depth perception, secondly they are stronger, which goes to stability of the shooting platform,…

(This isnt actually controversial: it's been known for years among game hunters. It's like certain kinds of fishing: females do salmon fishing way better than males. Actually, I would say, females do ALL kinds of fishing better than males-)

Guardian Article

There are four ways of determining sex, said Dr Peter Bowen-Simpkins, of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. The problem is that they can be at odds with one another. Chromosomal sex is defined by x and y chromosomes. The default…

I think that seeking to find ways to rule these women out of the competition is every bit as unfair as seeking to rule out men who have the same blessings. They will be rare women. They will be unusual women. But they are still women.

If the leaked test…

Men can't match women in some sporting events.

Just curious, what sports are these?

But women aren't just smaller versions of men. There are a lot of differences between the sexes.

By man-sized, I was pretty much meaning "a naturally superior female athlete in every dimension that men tend to be superior". Which is not every dimension, of course. Men can't match women in…

In much the same way that someone who has any other 'natural' advantage can. Being a naturally man-sized woman is an advantage on, say, a basketball court. Just because they are freakishly few and far between does not mean they should not be allowed.

But women aren't just smaller versions…

However, if someone who is intersex and has gone through puberty with those very high (ie typically male) levels of androgen that give a person physically male muscle:fat composition (to single out only one thing) then I can't see how they can fairly compete against women in sport.

In much…

The IAAF will release it's findings to Semenya first and in November, until such time all reports are unsubstantiated leaks.

I stand corrected – my apoolgies. The news reports I (mis) heard on the radio sounded like they had test results that classified her as hermaphrodite.

Moreover the IAAF has…

Whoa, where did that info come from?

The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) have (according to the news reports) found her to be intersex.

I'm not familiar with the IAAF or how they operate – are they likely to have falsified test results for some reason?

The IAAF will…

But on the subject of Caster Semenya – there is really no way she can compete against women – as she is not a woman. And she doesn't have a hormone imbalance or any kind of disorder – she is not female..

Whoa, where did that info come from?

The…

But on the subject of Caster Semenya – there is really no way she can compete against women – as she is not a woman. And she doesn't have a hormone imbalance or any kind of disorder – she is not female...

Whoa, where did that info come from?

Pitching is about deceiving the batter into swinging for a ball at the wrong time or place, and increased muscle mass isn't going to help that.

Quite the contrary in fact – in both pitching and batting the weight and the strength of the player is enormously important. You have…

Pitching is about deceiving the batter into swinging for a ball at the wrong time or place, and increased muscle mass isn't going to help that.

Not so sure about that...increased muscle mass can be linked to increased muscle control too. I say this because, as a long time goalkeeper,…

"This is a medical issue and not a doping issue where she was deliberately cheating," an IAAF spokesman, Nick Davies, told the Sydney Morning Herald.

Science of Sport as always should be the first port of call on this (a sports scientist AND a South African): on the "leaks"…

Surprisingly, it's mostly pretty mild... for now. However, there is one gem:

Telsh@r (United States of America)
0 minutes ago
Sorry but if she kept the medal it would only serve to justify cheating in…

And that it might be possible that 2nd place getter would also get gold. It sounded like they were guessing and making it up.

I would have thought international sporting…

We find that humans show low levels of…

Besides, your average man won't beat a good female runner, even with his testosterone advantage. On its own, it doesn't mean anything.

Yep, but the NZ mens' 100m record is an unremarkable 10.11 --- still nearly half a second faster than any woman in history has ever run, and more,…

why youse all hatin' on her?

Because they spent a lot of money getting her to play in Auckland when they could've got someone really good (well maybe not really good but better than Kournikova).

I suppose I should be a little bit nicer, she is often used as the…

Is it beacuse this abnormal testosterone level occurs so rarely?

Or because unusually high testosterone levels are just one factor among many that contribute to winning performance?

I would surmise that people with disorders of sexual development are no more likely than anyone else to have all the other factors…

Then why are women's athletics not already dominated by women with unusually-high testosterone levels?

Is it beacuse this abnormal testosterone level occurs so rarely?

Or because unusually high testosterone levels are just one factor among…

I'm willing to bet that Martina Hingis won two doubles grand slams and Kournikova was also there

And if at the end of 1999 Martina Hingis had been the WTA no.1 ranked womens doubles player I might be more inclined toward this argument =)

Kournikova has always been a doubles…

Oh, hang on. Kournikova won two doubles grand slams.

I'm willing to bet that Martina Hingis won two doubles grand slams and Kournikova was also there

And won two grand slams.

You're thinking of Sharapova.

For example Kournikova sucked really badly, but could earn more in a tournament than the eventual winner just for drawing in crowds.

She didn't suck that badly: she reached #8 in the world singles rankings and was several times #1 in doubles partnerships.

And won two grand slams.

"If your body is fueled by testosterone from an early age, you're going to develop a skeleton and a muscle mass and a type of muscle that is different from that of a normal woman -..."

Like the IAAF rules state:

5. Reconstructive surgery and sex reassignment

• if sex…

But surely we could get past things of the "Hockey's newest hottie" sexualisation, and the expectation that women still look a certain way, even while competing, and recognise…

(I think Thorne is in the new Weetbix ad btw)

You might be right there, but they all look the same to me...

Isn't he in that "buy our water and we'll give some money to some cute children" ad too? I could quite well be wrong though.

It seems…

A supportive post on a fairly NSFW female muscle site, whose readers (male and female) presumably find muscles attractive.

And a post-op trans bloggger links to quotes from Dr Renee Richards herself, who is clearly…

If they are good at what they do, who cares what they look like while they are doing it?

It seems quite possible that the women themselves do, just like ordinary non-athlete women like to look good.

Athletes, both male and female, are often pretty good to look at. It's…

(I think Thorne is in the new Weetbix ad btw)

You might be right there, but they all look the same to me...

(By “they”, I mean tight forwards)

Sex is a continuum, not a binary. Saying "oh, tough luck, they just can't compete" is basically demanding that anyone who doesn't fit neatly into a gender binary buggers off until we start having co-ed top-level sports (you'll be waiting a while).

I agree that gender is a spectrum rather…

I am frustrated by the double standard though, less-attractive male superstars will still get endorsments where their female counterparts wont – or certainly not as many or as much.

Are you talking about Rafeal "Chipmunk" Nadal?

Where are Brad Thorn’s endorsements?

That's a fair question, except that we're in New…

My feeling is that if Semenya's physiological advantage is natural (ie. not caused by performance-enhancing drugs) then she's a legitimate champion, just as Michael Phelps is with his unusually long arms. And she sure doen't deserve the public humiliation. If she's freakishly athletic, it's hardly her fault!

What…

less-attractive male superstars will still get endorsments where their female counterparts wont – or certainly not as many or as much.

I think that’s a generalisation. Where are Brad Thorn’s endorsements? Because, as a player, he deserves one.

It took Vettori over 10 years before he got his, and in…

I am frustrated by the double standard though, less-attractive male superstars will still get…

Transsexuals' desires to be accepted as women haven't always been viewed kindly by feminists.

And grumpy old Germaine Greer isn't much better:

Nowadays we are all likely to meet people who think they are women, have women's names, and feminine clothes and lots of eyeshadow, who seem to us to…

For example Kournikova sucked really badly, but could earn more in a tournament than the eventual winner just for drawing in crowds.

She didn't suck that badly: she reached #8 in the world singles rankings and was several times #1 in doubles partnerships.

But when she started slipping she certainly…

"Gosh Dan you're playing a little too well. You're not on steroids by any chance?"
—
And if he was then his Jockey ads wouldn't be very impressive.

Photoshop.

Specifically, the Liquify tool. Very useful for applying slight distortions such as, ahem, making things bigger or smaller.

Meanwhile, Semenya is more manly than most women, although certainly not most athletic women, so she is questioned.

It's the middle bit of that sentence that makes all the difference right? She's not outwardly more muscular than the more extreme female athletes, so why test her? There must be other…

"Gosh Dan you're playing a little too well. You're not on steroids by any chance?"

Yeah, but that's my point. Dan is a boy, who is a little girly, but he's fine. (And for the record, I don't think he really is a little bit girly, I just know he…

"Her fellow contestants have made the most offensive othering comments about her."

Maybe not all?
"I just feel sorry for Caster. It's the responsibility of South Africa and the IAAF and I think it is a situation that probably could have been avoided. At the ceremony, I was happy to…

"Gosh Dan you're playing a little too well. You're not on steroids by any chance?"

And if he was then his Jockey ads wouldn't be very impressive

My point is no one is suggesting that because he had his hair chemically straightened, he's too much of a girl to play rugby.

But you wouldn't. You would say "Gosh Dan you're playing a little too well. You're not on steroids by any chance?" Because while there are the…

I’d suggest Daniel Carter’s Jockey selling career is founded on a little bit more than his ability as a rugby player.

Of course it is. My point is no one is suggesting that because he had his hair chemically straightened, he's too much of a girl to play rugby.

For example Kournikova sucked really badly, but could earn more in a tournament than the eventual winner just for drawing in crowds.

Not to mention endorsements.

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail this thread

Please, most of my posts end with a great big break in the tracks anyway (to continue the train metaphor) :)

You ignore the sexualisation of women's sport at your peril, I think. Female athletes are expected to be much better looking…

People are just going "oh yeah, OK, she must be a dude b/c she's too good and not stereotypically attractive", like many other female athletes. (You ignore the sexualisation of women's sport at your peril, I think

Exactly. Because between issues like Semenya's, and complete asshattery like this how are…

You know it's the media right? Not to sound glib but when the story is "800m winner to undergo gender test" then you should know that the coverage from most quarters is going to be incredibly offensive.

Oh, for sure – I'm a critical media and communication scholar, so I…

It is a feminist issue, because a lot of people are basically saying "she's too good to be a woman. Oh, and she looks like a dude." (cue sniggering and offensive jokes.)

Yeah, but that issue is nothing to do with the sport. That's about people being asshats at every…

So if Semenya has been accused of not being completely female I would suggest it's not just on a whim because she looks a little bit like a man.

No, but it is definitely part of it. It is a feminist issue, because a lot of people are basically saying…

Haydn: I'm not suggesting Bolt takes steroids, my point was about normal variability of hormones from one male to another. If, say, he naturally had more testosterone than his competitors, would that give him an unfair advantage?

Yeah I know, that's what the T/E ratio looks at. If your ratio…

Has anyone suggested that if she's ineligible to compete against women she'd also be ineligible to compete against men?

No, but looking at the 800m record times she would be grossly uncompetitive – the world record for the men's 800m is around 1m41.11; she won the gold in the world…

And as Lucy says, if she *is* intersex, is she unable to compete with anyone?

Has anyone suggested that if she's ineligible to compete against women she'd also be ineligible to compete against men?

And how would natural hormone levels be different than any other natural physiological…

She may have been raised as a girl, but if she is intersex, then she can't legitimately compete against women.

Then what can she do? I think that's why this *is* a legitimate feminist issue – because it brings up questions about gender binaries, how we define gender, and the…

Oh and PS, has anyone been worried about Usain Bolt's testosterone levels? Is anybody rushing to test him in case he has a hormonal advantage? If it doesn't matter in his case, why does it matter in Semenya's?

Usain Bolt is a man competing against other men though – if…

Oh and PS, has anyone been worried about Usain Bolt's testosterone levels? Is anybody rushing to test him in case he has a hormonal advantage? If it doesn't matter in his case, why does it matter in Semenya's?

Nobody is refusing to race with him just because he's freakishly gifted.

…

Nobody is refusing to race with him just because he's freakishly gifted.

But as Rachel says, it's not like any really successful athlete has an average physique.

My feeling is that if Semenya's physiological advantage is natural (ie. not caused by performance-enhancing drugs) then she's a legitimate champion, just as Michael Phelps is with…

I want to dive in, but am not quite sure what to say.

Caster Semenya's physiology brings into question the issue of what is normal. It also a reminder that gender/sex isn't quite such…