Posts by A S
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Sure, I have no problem with keeping an eye on them; very sensible. Armed raids and locking them up without trial for a month is another matter altogether, especially when only 5 at most of the 17 were making such threats.
It wasn't that long ago that common or garden variety criminals spent up to 18 months on remand awaiting their trials. A month is pretty good going, really.
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Look, I'm also against paedophilia, holocaust denial, anti-semitism, intellectual property theft and offensive body odour.
And firearms offences?
Glibly suggesting that they're middle class kids playing games with no consequences betrays a great deal of wilful ignorance.
I suggested no such thing. Stop making shit up to suit your story.
And I'm sure that that is just what some in the police force are counting on by roping in the pacifists and environmentalists with the really dangerous people.
And the pacifists and environmentalists aren't doing a great deal to help their own cause, are they? The police don't need to worry about it, these groups are doing it to themselves.
As I've posted earlier, I wonder why I haven't seen any condemnation of the alleged acts from any except those that you seem to be railing against? i would have expected any principled groups to be very clear that activities of the sort alleged are completely out of line. If they don't their credibility is totally shot (no pun intended) in the eyes of most NZers.
Lets be very, very clear here. Regardless of intent to assassinate/baiting authorities arguments etc. etc. illegal guns and playing with molotov cocktails is NOT OK. Anyone who says they aren't serious issues should do some reading on what small arms fire can do to people, and what effects serious burns can have.
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Maybe, but it's not all hypotheses are of equal value simply because they're hypotheses. There is the problem of some activist getting their hands on the exact documents and handing them to TV3 and the Dompost when it is extremely unlikely that they could somehow break into the police or SG's offices versus the far more likely scenario of someone already inside doing the deed.
When I said political, I wasn't referring to the lunatic fringe of activists, I meant politicians.
Your hypotheses are drawing a fairly long bow without any compelling evidence other than pre-conceived notions, so lets not assume that any one set is better than another.
What I've been trying to say about the leaks is that we don't know the full story. We are unlikely to know in the short term, and making shit up can come from any perspective. I'm just honest enough to admit that I'm inventing possible scenarios.
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I just want to echo what kracklite has been saying about the nature of the so-called activists, their history with the police, and their reaction these events. If you look at things from their POV it's easy to understand why they have reacted the way they have, especially why they leaped to the defence of the arrested people straight away.
Leaping to the defence of people is fine, implicitly supporting the breaking of some fairly serious laws through inaction, isn't.
I don't particularly like police for a raft of reasons, but I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who doesn't have the guts to front up and say that while the police handled things badly, the acts that people are accused of have to be condemned out of hand.
From my POV, I don't care about their history with the police, I just care that there shouldn't be a group of people who think it is ok to turn a blind eye to this sort of behaviour because they don't like the cops.
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I wonder if what we have here is a "perfect storm" where grievances over a number of issues are focussed on one case. The anger/hysteria is multiplied by each factor: race, land, raids, accusations of terrorism, fears of state power, the Foreshore legislation, trustworthiness or otherwise of the police and so on.
What I suspect is that instead of anger against govt/state, what this has done is probably start to stir a groundswell against so many of the causes that these 'activists' represent.
No reasonable, sane person outside of these causes is going to support people or organisations that look to be linked to assassination attempts, bombing campaigns or generally trying to undermine all that they have worked for.
The most frightening part of all of this is that I haven't seen a statement from any of the various causes named as being involved that condemns these alleged acts, and states a withdrawal of support for the accused, should they be found guilty. Doesn't anyone else find this odd?
Sure it is nice to play protester and blame everyone else for the woes of the world, but when are some groups going to start owning their own shit and say that if people are found guilty, they're beyond the pale?
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I believe that Campbell and the Dompost definitely referred specifically to hundred-odd page affadavits. There is no way that the activists would have had that in their hands to give to the media.
Word of mouth can be effective in spreading details of charges from the moment those arrested had a chance to talk to someone who wasn't a cop.
As for the unlikelihood of an own goal, haven't we just seen a perfect example of a screw up by the police? Don't overestimate them.
I'm not sure which supposed screw up you are talking about, sorry.
I would have thought that even the most dim-witted, angry, disgruntled cop is going to think, even just a little, about the fact that if they leak, and if they do, when they get caught, their career is over.
I don't know about you but I haven't seen too many want ads seeking disgraced former policemen lately.
On the other hand, there could be multiple political motives to leak info, from any end of the political spectrum, for the purpose of advancing a multitude of agendas.
Again, i'm making shit up, but then so have quite a lot of posters with a conspiracy theory bent this morning, and just like their assertions, this could also be true.
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Finn,
I think we're wasting our time actually trying to point out the lack of logic in the stuff sonic says. Any time you point out the flaw, sonic rushes off to another topic that he can make illogical statements about.
In time, you will be so frustrated that..... Oh bugger it. Activists are only the voice of the oppressed. Police Bad, Terror good.
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Judges tend to take a very dim view of people deliberately trying to derail court proceedings to their advantage. Which is why we don't see defendants doing it.
I would tend to agree with you there. I did wonder a bit though about why the assumption is that the Police leaked this. It seems like every man and his dog had a copy of this information, why do we automatically assume it came from the Police, when looking at it logically it would be an own-goal from their perspective if they've been found to have leaked it...
They're already in the muck, they have to be taking some interesting drugs to actively try to sink deeper into it...
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I was taking the piss out of your silly suggestion Sonic, I didn't pretend my story was factual.
They were watching these people every minute of every day, are you seriously trying to tell us that dawn raids were the only way to pick them up?
They could have lifted them at New World when they went shopping.
Let's just test your next piece of tactical genius. Ruatoki is a small town of how many people? A couple of hundred? Ever lived in a small town? Do you think just maybe one or two locals might just have noticed someone watching the suspects every second of every day? Not really going to fly that theory I suspect....
Also, lets think through the scenario as the arresting officers shall we?
Option 1: arresting someone you think has been playing with guns and other nasty toys, in a VERY public environment where if anything goes pear shaped, a lot of people could get hurt very quickly; OR
Option 2: Arrest the suspect at home while he is asleep, where there is little chance of anyone getting hurt.
it is a bit of a no brainer isn't it?
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Sonic
Lambert, as Matt Macarten pointed out, if you wanted to talk to Tame Iti all you would have to do is either a) invite hime to the cop shop with his lawyer or B) wait until he was travelling and stop the car.
No need for dawn raids unless you were aiming for drama.
Thanks for that. I needed a good laugh.
Can you imagine it?
ring ring. "Kia ora"
"Is that Mr Iti?"
"Ae"
"it's detective john smith of the Ruatoki CIB here, I was just wondering if you could come down the station with your lawyer to talk about some illegal guns, explosives and plots to assassinate the PM and blow stuff up?"
"Ae, sure thing mr Smith"
"Oh, and Mr Iti, please don't try to hide any of the guns or explosives we need for evidence, now there's a good chap. We'll send someone around for it later. Would you mind terribly laying them all out on the grass outside for us?"
"not a problem mr Smith, kia ora"
"good bye"
Click.
Do you think about things before you say them often? Thanks for the laugh all the same.