"The Terrorism Files"
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Of course, there's a big difference here: the police aren't facing criminal charges and possible jail time. But if they ever do, I'll happily repeat those sentiments on their behalf. We have a courts, trials, a justice system to avoid the "justice" of the lynchmob.
I do understand the difference. But it does seem to me that virtually all the metaphorical lynching has been done by one side. There has been an order of magnitude more hysteria from supporters of those arrested than from the general public.
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Don't overestimate them.
Actually, to be fair, I should say "Officer X" or suchlike - it just takes one, very likely furious that a year's work has just been ruled inadmissable and must be destroyed and the media and activists are portraying the force as fools.
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Thanks again Matthew
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"...Yeah, lot's of people have regurgitated this sentiment but the logic of it still escapes me. Since when did 'they're no worse than the neo-nazi's' become the criteria for legitimacy in our society?..."
My point was more that Tuhoe may have a gripe about being singled out.
Having said that, the outfits that rabble on the hiko are wearing appears to little more than a poor taste attempt to be provative. What they hoped to achieve in terms of hearts and minds escapes me. All through the land people will be watching the 6.00pm news tonight and saying to themselves, "well theres the smoke, I suppose there must be some fire."
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Tuhoe spokesman Tamati Kruger told Newstalk ZB marchers have been wearing scarves and hoodies over their faces to draw attention to how the police dressed when they "invaded" Ruatoki.
Hikoi masks to 'educate public'
New Zealand Herald
14 November 2007Now if only Destiny had used the same strategy on their anti-civil union protest . . .
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The fact that gang leaders seldom get busted suggests that there might well be some sort of accomodation between them and the cops.
Oh c'mon. I'd wager that most gang members, including the leaders, spend a good portion of their lives behind bars for one thing or another.
There are plenty of cases of Police misconduct to show the organisation has its problems, but the level of corruption required to make this conspiracy theory float? Send in Serpico.
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Right on cue ...
"Those who are leaking the information are breaking the law. They are committing criminal acts themselves and are demonstrating contempt for the rule of law," Mr Sharples said.
Last week from a certain Maori Party MP ...
"I will not sit quietly by while the state forces terrorise my people ... I will challenge the rule of law and I will oppose the rule of law if terrorism is a vehicle being used by the state forces of this country to terrorise Maori communities."
Again from Pita Sharples today, on the Dom Post:
"It creates bush lawyers out of us all, in itself heightening the sense of alarm that has already dominated the debate around terrorism," said Dr Sharples.
I'd feel a bit more sympathy if Sharples hadn't repeatedly described the police as "stormtroopers", which, assuming he wasn't referring to Star Wars, actually means Nazi shock troops whose role was to fire indiscriminately and kill as many people as possible.
Given that, I think it's a bit rich to condemn the newspaper for "heightening the sense of alarm".
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The question that must be asked, is, "do the "terrorism files" show the other side?"
They are the affidavits presented to a judge in order to get the search warrants that were executed on the 15th of October. As a consequence, they are a selection of juicy evidence that can be construed as presenting a case for search warrants. They aren't a complete or balanced summary - that's not what they are designed for.That may well be true in practice, but it is not how the search warrant application is supposed to work. Applications fundamentally are supposed to be a complete and balanced summary so that the judicial officer is able to make a reasoned decision - certainly both the Police and other agencies have been criticised by the Courts for not doing so.
If you're right, and they weren't, any half-decent defence counsel could well have had the information gathered biffed as improperly obtained if it had gone to trial.
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There has been an order of magnitude more hysteria from supporters of those arrested than from the general public.
I wonder if what we have here is a "perfect storm" where grievances over a number of issues are focussed on one case. The anger/hysteria is multiplied by each factor: race, land, raids, accusations of terrorism, fears of state power, the Foreshore legislation, trustworthiness or otherwise of the police and so on.
Look at the scrutiny of the police and the SIS over Zaoui, Tasers, Rickards and so on, combine that with a history of antagonism between police and activists...
None of these issues have had neat "closure" so it becomes a point of articulation for general anger. (What the hell is "closure" anyway? Who the hell believes that history has distinct chapters?)
One might compare it with the hysteria over the antismacking legislation or Tamaki's Blackshirts marching and shouting "enough is enough". I don't agree with those nutbars, but I understand that there is a definite cultural group that sees itself and its values as being under sustained attack when others saw minor points and issues blown out of all proportion or deliberately misrepresented. There's some point, some visible cause and reaction in which the reaction can be seen as being partly symptomatic, and if the grievances have a clear and deep historical basis, well...
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Given that, I think it's a bit rich to condemn the newspaper for "heightening the sense of alarm".
Perhaps he meant to say "for shifting the balance of alarm" - in a direction he doesn't enjoy... ;-]
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A S,
I believe that Campbell and the Dompost definitely referred specifically to hundred-odd page affadavits. There is no way that the activists would have had that in their hands to give to the media.
Word of mouth can be effective in spreading details of charges from the moment those arrested had a chance to talk to someone who wasn't a cop.
As for the unlikelihood of an own goal, haven't we just seen a perfect example of a screw up by the police? Don't overestimate them.
I'm not sure which supposed screw up you are talking about, sorry.
I would have thought that even the most dim-witted, angry, disgruntled cop is going to think, even just a little, about the fact that if they leak, and if they do, when they get caught, their career is over.
I don't know about you but I haven't seen too many want ads seeking disgraced former policemen lately.
On the other hand, there could be multiple political motives to leak info, from any end of the political spectrum, for the purpose of advancing a multitude of agendas.
Again, i'm making shit up, but then so have quite a lot of posters with a conspiracy theory bent this morning, and just like their assertions, this could also be true.
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I do understand the difference. But it does seem to me that virtually all the metaphorical lynching has been done by one side.
Again, I don't think it is at all improper to seek to hold the police as an institution accountable for their actions and potential misuse of the law. These people work for us, therefore they are accountable to us. And any police officer who is unhappy with that situation should start looking for another job.
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There has been an order of magnitude more hysteria from supporters of those arrested than from the general public.
And you're comparing apples with oranges. What you really want to be comparing is the respective levels of hysteria of the supporters of the arrested and the Mark/Peters/Kiwiblog-comments lynch mob.
Anyhow, last time I looked, the police's mandate was to uphold the law, not to uphold the law until someone got hysterical.
Once again, the members of the "Urewera 17"* who uttered the comments published in the DomPost appear to be loons of the first degree and deserve to stand trial. They also deserve a fair trial.
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*As an aside, would it be too much to ask that the left possibly start coming up with some sort of new naming system for their martyrs; the old one's more than a little bit worn. -
the outfits that rabble on the hiko are wearing appears to little more than a poor taste attempt to be provative.
According to press reports, the hikoi is organised and headed by Taiarahia Black, who is a full professor and head of the Maori Dept at Massey University PN. The knee-jerk, bigoted and outright offensive remark above demonstrates just how effective the Dom's press coverage is at demonising and trivialising sincere efforts of public protest by the likes of Prof. Black.
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A S,
I wonder if what we have here is a "perfect storm" where grievances over a number of issues are focussed on one case. The anger/hysteria is multiplied by each factor: race, land, raids, accusations of terrorism, fears of state power, the Foreshore legislation, trustworthiness or otherwise of the police and so on.
What I suspect is that instead of anger against govt/state, what this has done is probably start to stir a groundswell against so many of the causes that these 'activists' represent.
No reasonable, sane person outside of these causes is going to support people or organisations that look to be linked to assassination attempts, bombing campaigns or generally trying to undermine all that they have worked for.
The most frightening part of all of this is that I haven't seen a statement from any of the various causes named as being involved that condemns these alleged acts, and states a withdrawal of support for the accused, should they be found guilty. Doesn't anyone else find this odd?
Sure it is nice to play protester and blame everyone else for the woes of the world, but when are some groups going to start owning their own shit and say that if people are found guilty, they're beyond the pale?
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I just want to echo what kracklite has been saying about the nature of the so-called activists, their history with the police, and their reaction these events. If you look at things from their POV it's easy to understand why they have reacted the way they have, especially why they leaped to the defence of the arrested people straight away.
Is it reasonable to be angry with everyone at this point? With people who want to shoot their fellow citizens, with clumsy police and dastardly leakers, with the arrogant bugger-your-fair-trial Dompost, and with people who do their own causes no good?
Incidentally, I see both Minto and Moana Jackson have called for all the material to be published and an inquiry held. So presumably they feel that there is something to salvage out of this mess.
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And just as another aside, I couldn't help wondering if a tiny bit of Clark's wrath towards the alleged terrorists came from them referring to John Key as 'the new Prime Minister'. They certainly didn't do themselves any favors there . . .
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I'd feel a bit more sympathy if Sharples hadn't repeatedly described the police as "stormtroopers", which, assuming he wasn't referring to Star Wars, actually means Nazi shock troops whose role was to fire indiscriminately and kill as many people as possible.
I think there's a genuine sense of having been betrayed here, stemming from the fact that local police who'd supposedly been engaged in building an ongoing liaison with Tuhoe were hung out to dry by the pre-emptive nature of the raids.
With the Government & opposition effectively out to lunch on this issue it's a bit hard to see what's to be gained by this ongoing bagging of Sharples. -
I would have thought that even the most dim-witted, angry, disgruntled cop is going to think, even just a little, about the fact that if they leak, and if they do, when they get caught, their career is over.
If they get caught. Most leakers aren't, and given that journalists won't reveal their sources, these ones are unlikely to be.
Which makes it a lovely bit of revenge with no consequences, except for on the accused and the general mana of the police force (something they depend on every day to do their jobs, and which is looking pretty tarnished already).
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Is it reasonable to be angry with everyone at this point? With people who want to shoot their fellow citizens, with clumsy police and dastardly leakers, with the arrogant bugger-your-fair-trial Dompost, and with people who do their own causes no good?
I don't know if it's reasonable, but it's certainly how I feel.
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There has been an order of magnitude more hysteria from supporters of those arrested than from the general public.
I wonder if what we have here is a "perfect storm" where grievances over a number of issues are focussed on one case. The anger/hysteria is multiplied by each factor: race, land, raids, accusations of terrorism, fears of state power, the Foreshore legislation, trustworthiness or otherwise of the police and so on.
Look at the scrutiny of the police and the SIS over Zaoui, Tasers, Rickards and so on, combine that with a history of antagonism between police and activists...
None of these issues have had neat "closure" so it becomes a point of articulation for general anger. (What the hell is "closure" anyway? Who the hell believes that history has distinct chapters?)
This is broadly reflects my thoughts on this. Sorry about the giant quotes rather than using my own words but I am still reflecting on this and am deeply uncomfortable about the trial by media aspects of the way this is unfolding. I don't have the energy or the inclination for endless speculating. OTOH I really wanted more information and we certainly got some of that today, but it is all still an incomplete picture.
Also all of what Terence Wood said above.
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I'm not sure which supposed screw up you are talking about, sorry.
The failure to get terrorism charges allowed by the SG when they thought that they would, the ruling that evidence compiled over a year is inadmissable, that millions of dollars has been wasted. That's what I mean by a screw up, along with a hefty dollop of public humiliation.
I would have thought that...
Someone nearing retirement, someone so fucked off that they just didn't care, someone who thinks that they've covered their tracks, someone who thought/thinks that their mates will cover for them as Dewar did. Who knows?
I don't know about you but I haven't seen too many want ads seeking disgraced former policemen lately.
Rather below the level of Oscar Wilde, that one. Leaving the force is not the end of everything. A lot of ex cops find jobs in security and as private detectives. Wayne Idour comes to mind.
Again, i'm making shit up
Yep.
this could also be true.
Maybe, but it's not all hypotheses are of equal value simply because they're hypotheses. There is the problem of some activist getting their hands on the exact documents and handing them to TV3 and the Dompost when it is extremely unlikely that they could somehow break into the police or SG's offices versus the far more likely scenario of someone already inside doing the deed.
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According to press reports, the hikoi is organised and headed by Taiarahia Black, who is a full professor and head of the Maori Dept at Massey University PN. The knee-jerk, bigoted and outright offensive remark above demonstrates just how effective the Dom's press coverage is at demonising and trivialising sincere efforts of public protest by the likes of Prof. Black.
My partner went down to have a look at the protests at lunchtime. I got two texts.
"Going to look at protesters"
"Fuck they're scary"
She doesn't work for the Dom Post.
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A S,
I just want to echo what kracklite has been saying about the nature of the so-called activists, their history with the police, and their reaction these events. If you look at things from their POV it's easy to understand why they have reacted the way they have, especially why they leaped to the defence of the arrested people straight away.
Leaping to the defence of people is fine, implicitly supporting the breaking of some fairly serious laws through inaction, isn't.
I don't particularly like police for a raft of reasons, but I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who doesn't have the guts to front up and say that while the police handled things badly, the acts that people are accused of have to be condemned out of hand.
From my POV, I don't care about their history with the police, I just care that there shouldn't be a group of people who think it is ok to turn a blind eye to this sort of behaviour because they don't like the cops.
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Taiarahia Black is the guy that was on Morning Report complaining about "hysteria' and then went on to repeatedly call the police stormtroopers and saying people were labelling Tuhoe as terrorists. Of course the people who have repeatedly shouted the word terrorist loudest are those supposed supporters of the arrested.
Re the leak, Tony Ellis a lawyer doing work for defence as an advisor rather than representing them said he had seen a copy of the document and every defence lawyer and their clients, and a range of others had copies. There are dozens of these things flying around in other words.
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