Hard News: Undie Wankers
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So, I suspect that there's confusion between actual drop-out rates and frequency with which minds are changed between enrolment and graduation.
I suspect so. My partner started out in engineering and will end up with a PGDip or Master's in COSC, which is not a huge leap but still not finishing the degree he enrolled for, and I know a lot of similar stories (especially around engineering.) OTOH, I know enough people who did drop out to make me believe the true figure might be closer to 50% than you'd think.
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I liked that Graeme Downes comment. That's the only thing I've read so far that answers the question no one's asked but should have: why always Dunedin? You could send this car race to Chch, Palmerston North, Wellington, Auckland or Hamilton and this wouldn't happen. All those places have concentrations of student population but none with the density -- no pun intended -- of Dunedin's. The city's let an entire suburb turn into one big hostel for on-the-piss first years.
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The reaction here in Dunedin has been universally pissed off with the students, and there's going to be a lot of support for them both facing hard punishment from the police, and from the university. There's a no diversion policy in place for the event, and once court cases are complete the university will seek to exclude some of them. There's lots of calls to do things that aren't legal - exclude them from coming to town, shut down the whole street for the weekend, ban people from drinking on private property, etc etc.
What's not been well handled, again, is any attempt to deal with what's causing the event and trying to make it safe. The student president, as much as he doesn't have all the answers, did try before the event to get the city council to allow them to put on a free event for the Saturday night to try and prevent the Castle Street Party developing. They shot it down.
There's a developing culture of "this is what happens on undie weekend". Rather than trying to break it by arresting a bunch of people, which isn't working, someone needs to try diverting it into something safer so it fades from cultural memory - which is only a couple of years in terms of students.
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Because it starts in Christchurch given that's where University of Canterbury Engineering is, and then where the hell else can you go in the South Island?
People have suggested going elsewhere, but one of the problems with NZ is that there are very few places to go.
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(Warning: this thread promiscuously mated with the morals thread not too long ago...the only thing I want to add is tautoko for philipmatthews' comment - you just dont get the concentration of away-from-home students at any other ANZ university.)
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People have suggested going elsewhere, but one of the problems with NZ is that there are very few places to go.
I would pay good money to see them go to, ooooh. Hokitika. The Alps would kill most of the cars, but that would be half the amusement factor. Finishing would actually be an achievement.
ETA: Magic!
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Hey - has anyone else noticed that we now have an edit button?
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Because it starts in Christchurch given that's where University of Canterbury Engineering is, and then where the hell else can you go in the South Island?
When I said, why always Dunedin, I didn't mean the race per se. I meant why this kind of thing happens there and wouldn't happen if you drove a bunch of clapped-out cars from, say, Auckland to the University of Waikato.
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The Alps would kill most of the cars, but that would be half the amusement factor. Finishing would actually be an achievement.
It'd be funny, yes. Not too many pubs on the way to Hokitika though.
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Mrs Crumb: "Don't like Landlords"
Quiz Master Michael: "Ha ha ahahahahahahahahaahahaha
hahahahahahaa....Who does...!"
"What'll it be Mrs Crumb, A dagger up the clitoris or the blow on the head?"
Mrs Crumb: "I'll take the blow on the head thank you Michael."Graeme Downe DOES make some interesting points re student populations then and now and on the Uni Suburb living density today.
Great! Its the Landlords fault! Maybe it is more a ploy of the financiers of the loan scheme? Let the first years flat in the dumps the first year then they get tired of the cold and damp and rent a more expensive flat the next. Now that is one interesting way of getting their debt and repayment level up eh what? I wonder what the incentives are for the banks clipping the tickets?
Christ. No wonder they bugger off out of the country!
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Edit??
YES. GREAT EH?? !!! -
Anyone who has marked uni assignments/exams recently will know that the universities are full of people who shouldn't be there. The unis want bums on seats and push their "clients" through regardless of competency, because they need the cash. Same with the polytechs.
These rioters are NOT our future brain surgeons - they are our future munters. Don't make the mistake of confusing them with the bohemians of your youth, who partied their way through multiple aborted degrees before graduating with something from the only faculty that would accept their enrolment (usually philosophy or religion), and then went on to make stellar contributions to NZ culture. These pricks will fuck off to Ozzie and become unemployed chippies, property developers or bent cops. We get left with their student loan, and a new generation of munters hell-bent on "macho oneupmanship".
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FYI: There's a bug in the new forums update which means clicking "last post" doesn't display all the messages in a thread properly -- but clicking the subject or "Read Topic" does. The lads are working on it now.
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All those places have concentrations of student population but none with the density -- no pun intended -- of Dunedin's.
I'm not so sure about that, at least on density per se. For theree years I've lived right beside one of the most densely-populated blocks in central Wellington (whcih is saying something), and it's mostly student hostels. There's plenty of drunken hooting and hollering every Wednesday night as the first-year muntocracy and tottering Supre Slappers surge between the hostels, Big Kumara and Courtenay Place, and Orientation week is definitely time for earplugs. Extraneous bodily fluids are involved, and there's no doubt the occasional punch-up, but you know what? I've never come across any of them throwing bricks, setting things on fire or chanting "Let's start a riot".
We're not talking two-storey infill here, but 8-14 storey high-rise hostels, and people around the world live at far higher densities without feeling the need to chuck stuff at the rozzers, so I don't think we can blame property developers for the Dunedin problems. But the monoculture might be more of an issue, and the fact that these hostels are right on the edge of the CBD means that the students are part of a much broader population. There's also the fact that in central Wellington there are things to do that don't involve bonfires and throwing bottles.
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Without wishing to stick my head too far above the parapet, this has been going on for longer than the current crop of students have been alive. So any criticism of their actions should be a criticism of their culture. A lot of the commentators have been going on about "privilege" as if this means anything - in my view it's a bit of a red herring.
What these kids are trying to do is being transgressive, and dunedin around undie 500 time is probably their big opportunity - maybe their first and maybe their only real chance, so they leap at it. Dunedin really feels like it is so far away from anything, it attracts a large population of people who are seeking something different or extreme - if they didn't they'd stay at home in auckland or christchurch and live with the folks while they studied.
as someone, or anyone who was there in 88, or 90, or 93 would recall, the police in dunedin appear to deliberately ratchet up the tension (with riot gear, or barking dogs) in order to frighten the students (who it should be remembered include out of towners and high school students) into dispersing peacefully - and time after time this tactic is shown to be a miserable failure. It actually gives more emphasis to the transgression, which of course is happening well away from mum and dad's concerned gaze. A lot of this is simply acting out, nobody could imagine a return to the real bad old days, say before the hostels were "cleared" of returning students in 1989, but a lot of people would love to emulate the experience of those days. And they just have, courtesy of the police.
My money (50 cents down) says we'll have the same conversations in 10 or 20 years time. Maybe they'll even reprint "ritual song of defiance" so people can get some perspective? -
The high-density, ghetto nature of North Dunedin is exactly what gives the city its charm as a University town. No need for cars, you know 100 people within a block, never far to walk home etc...
OK, most of the houses face south, but blame the Scotland based town planners in the 1840s for that one.
I was there some time ago, and the only time I ever came across the Police was the many times I lied to them about my age in the pubs.
We were too tight to do anything to our furniture.
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Coming from Canada I agree with these comments:
We were amazed when we moved to this part of the world at the leniency shown students by civic leaders and police.
and:
My wife, who is from Europe, is always dumfounded that we are so lenient on drunken, irreverent, privileged kids.
The difference between the way wealthy white and poor brown people are treated is really surprising to anyone from overseas.
In Canada there is a greater need for justice to at least be seen to be done. Here I can think of many instances here where the very privileged status of the offender is given as a reason for leniency.
The objection to police turning up in riot gear is also amazing to me - if people are throwing bricks and bottles, then it seems not only sensible, but necessary that police be decked out in riot gear.
The cost in terms of police hours, clean up, medical treatment of both rioters and police, not to mention the processing through the justice system will be significant as it is. Had police not been wearing helmets and carrying shields someone is quite likely to have been killed.
To excuse those throwing bricks and bottles as "young" is also misguided. At what point do people stop being considered children in this country? I think anyone over 18 should be considered an adult and prosecuted as such.
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Anyone who has marked uni assignments/exams recently will know that the universities are full of people who shouldn't be there.
Best way is with alcohol. Easier on you, easier on them. Or harder, but possibly that's just me.
I think anyone over 18 should be considered an adult and prosecuted as such.
They are prosecuted as such. If they're prosecuted. Thing is, there is a place for diversion; I just think it needs to be applied fairly and evenly.
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Wow, so that is the Edit button. He said. Adding one word. At. A. Time.
Phil
who will no longer suffer 'ohnoseconds', those tiny tiny slivers of time between pushing <Enter> and realising what is misspelt. -
The high-density, ghetto nature of North Dunedin is exactly what gives the city its charm as a University town. No need for cars, you know 100 people within a block, never far to walk home etc...
Quite. For me, density will usually have more positives than negatives, and I'm all in favour of the extra vitality and variety that a whole lot of people can bring to a neighbourhood. But anyone who's read Jane Jacobs will know that density also requires mixed use, and IIRC North Dunedin didn't have much back in the day other than flats and a 24-hour dairy. Has that changed? Or has the density increased without introducing other amenities and activities?
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dyan:
At what point do people stop being considered children in this country?
Perhaps part of the problem is that many of us who are now respectable if not sober citizens have guilty consciences about our own behaviour when younger and would feel hypocritical clamping down too hard.
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Pubs between CHCH & Hokitika?
Shitloads. Especially if you include 'hostelry selling alcohol' within the term 'pub'.
However, tolerance of non-local hoon behaviours = limited, all the way.
Hokitika citizens & police are not unknown for being very creative in their dealings with outoftowner wankers.O, and I would personally drive to viewpoint above the Luge to warch the vehicles expiring!
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What annoys me is that the police never do these things properly. They need to use the Undie 500 as a training exercise for new recruits and old haters - lots of police! Encourage the Undie 500 and herd them all into Castle Street. Then seal the whole place off and go in with riot gear, tear gas, pepper spray, water cannons, batons, boots and maybe a bit of speed. Beat the crap out of anyone who gets in the way until the police meet in the middle, then beat the crap out of anyone left on your way back out again. Don't arrest anyone or charge anyone so no careers are destroyed. The next year, anyone who joins the Undie 500 knows what they're signing up for. Police riot training. Possible reality TV rights available.
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Perhaps part of the problem is that many of us who are now respectable if not sober citizens have guilty consciences about our own behaviour when younger and would feel hypocritical clamping down too hard.
I'm still not sober, and only marginally respectable, and I can certainly recall contact with the cops when I was younger -- but I had better things to do than what these munters think is fun.
I recall having arguments in the 90s with some of the Act-ards at Auckland Uni who were really big on the "blowing off steam" thing. Probably because getting publicly drunk and pulling down their pants was the most interesting thing they were ever going to do in their lives.
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... and realising what is misspelt.
Are you sure that's not misspelled ?
=)
p.s. I like the 50-comments-a-page deal.
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