Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: The standing-still sweep

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  • Neil Morrison,

    Craig, belabouring any small point will eventually make that point look ridiculous and I feel I'm belabouring what I initially said. Which was, some people whose initial reaction was to attack the police might want to consider what the consequences of Tame Iti's Dad's Army carry on might be.

    Large conflagrations start from a few sparks. And I’m thinking about what's happened around our local neighbourhood. That's all a bit unlikely but it is one possible outcome of the police taking no action.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    I've heard of a guy, the Kiwi Al Quaeda, 2nd hand but from a reliable & respected source. It's wasn't a crime at the time & he didn't get caught.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Large conflagrations start from a few sparks.

    And to extend the analogy, any halfway competent fire-fighter will tell you that calm heads - and a proportionate, considered response - save lives. Flailing around like the proverbial headless chook does not.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Ailsa Smith wrote that a warrior named Tohu held the sword on the day Parihaka was plundered. 'In the midst of his concern for his people at the time of the raid, Tohu did not forget von Tempsky's sword which Titokowaru had given him for safekeeping. Anticipating that the village would be searched for arms when the troops arrived, Tohu handed the sword to a kuia and instructed her to bury it in the village middenheap.'

    http://www.pukeariki.com/en/stories/conflict/vontempskysword.htm

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Large conflagrations start from a few sparks.

    I don't think that's the case Neil. There's evidence for that in non-Western countries, but only in an environment where things were ready to catch ablaze. Fidel landing on Cuba was a very small spark to start with, and practically incompetent for the first few weeks.

    But domestic violent uprising of some sort, in a Western country? Various European terrorist organisations, Baader Meinhof, Weather Underground - none of these went anywhere. They were all widely renounced, even when, such as the WU, there was broadspread support for their goals, if not their methods.

    The closest you could find in Western countries of what you're talking about are religious cults. Waco, TX, and that whack group that went down to South America and committed mass suicide. And lets be honest, the only widespread conflagration they were involved with was dying.

    There's no scenario that you could think of where a few dozen sovereignty activists suddenly commit violent acts, shoot someone, and then hundreds more join them in. They would be renounced across the political spectrum, cut off from their non-violent base, and taken down by the police.

    Maybe a few people out there are foolish enough to believe that it's possible, but lets not take the whack jobs seriously.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    What I'm thinking now is that if this turns out to be serious, this should put paid to further calls for increases in police powers, because it would be an example of existing power working well.

    Ooh Craig, the fire brigade turn up to every alarm, even when there's no fire. How's that analogy working out for you?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Ooh Craig, the fire brigade turn up to every alarm, even when there's no fire. How's that analogy working out for you?

    Wasn't mine, Stephen, but I note the Fire Service takes a very dim view of having their time wasted with false alarms - a position I have considerable sympathy with. Nor do the public have much sympathy for pyromaniac firemen.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    I was going to post this last night but...
    Anypoo. This use of the TSA is not the only apparent missuse of state powers. Following the Food Saftey Authorities seemingly over reaction to the A2 milk row we also have Ewan Campbell's prosecution over his Probitas system. Big beurocracy hang in hand with Big Fertiliser.
    Following the clues this seems to be directly connected to EU standards for farming and major conflicts of interest with the Farmers Federation. Greenies under attack again.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Tomorrowpeople,

    In the light of day - the whole story looks incredilbly shaky.

    Like, er, throwing a napalm bomb when you could use a fly swat to kill the fly....

    Big deal over nothing?

    Seems to be a kerfuffle about not much.

    Hopefully it will bring the stupid 'anti-terrorist' laws into the public spotlight.

    The Craps tables at the B… • Since Nov 2006 • 188 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    But domestic violent uprising of some sort, in a Western country?

    Northern Ireland just somehow passed you by?

    What I'm thinking now is that if this turns out to be serious, this should put paid to further calls for increases in police powers, because it would be an example of existing power working well.

    It should, but it won't.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Steve: Really?.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    The closest you could find in Western countries of what you're talking about are religious cults. Waco, TX, and...

    even the waco one is a poor example.

    the shooting there wasn't started by the godbotherers, it was started by the law enforcers. the latter got a bit trigger happy, the godbotherers shot back and won.

    then the cops came back with the really big guns. this involved killing a number of cultists, including women and children burnt alive after the law really went to town.

    there's an american documentary on the whole thing somewhere.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison,

    There's no scenario that you could think of where a few dozen sovereignty activists suddenly commit violent acts, shoot someone, and then hundreds more join them in.

    There are a number of ways that blokes with guns with grudge can complicate the political process. Tame Iti and co. do have some sympathy. Add to that tit-for-tat responses from extreme right wing groups and there's a volotile mix.

    This is small time stuff but it's worth considering what has gone on in other Pacific countries and I do recall quite a few voices on the Left arguing that such things could happen here if Treaty grievances weren't properly dealt with.

    Luckily we have succeed in not going down the road of sectarian violence, partly because of the Treaty settlement process Another way that could happen is for small group to cause trouble. Feuds in rural communities can take on a life of their own.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    There's no scenario that you could think of where a few dozen sovereignty activists suddenly commit violent acts, shoot someone, and then hundreds more join them in.

    No, but I can think of one where a few Pakeha vigilantes start patrolling with their own guns, and then someone gets shot (no doubt by mistake), and then your activists say "see, we were right" and a few more doubters join them, and then some skins from out of town come in to make trouble just as things are calming down, and ...

    Timely intervention can stop these things from happening. And maybe, that's what we're seeing. Or not. There is a terrible absence of facts at this point.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    From this mornings Herald;
    "The officers, clad in black uniforms and carrying assault rifles, ordered motorists and passengers to step out of their cars while they conducted searches at a roadblock inside the cordon.

    They opened boots and bonnets and checked the underside of vehicles and trailers of trucks with mirrors mounted on poles."

    How is this a legal search? unless it is under the TSA. And no warrant for the ChCh raid?
    Heads will surely roll.
    The public perception of the police has taken a serious knock here in light of the failure to find the body in the Xue case with the excuse that they needed a warant before they could open the boot.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    A country needs to be lot more poor and oppressed than NZ to have a successful uprising of any kind.

    That said, I don't like the idea of armed militias roaming around in the forests, whether or not it's about protecting cash crops.

    They could get up to mischief just in the forest, let alone any grandiose plans of whacking high level targets. A country of laws doesn't allow it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Stephen Judd
    Yes really. I have read the official press release, released on the day of sentencing. Trust me here, there is more to this than meets the eye. Follow the Link

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison,

    And now Bomber is claiming to have some very interesting inside goss.

    It's certainly entertaining.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Northern Ireland just somehow passed you by?

    Northern Ireland isn't a spark that started a conflagration.

    Northern Ireland is a few hundreds years of oppression, war, religious division, and an occupying army, with periodic bouts of revolution.

    What it's certainly not is a couple of dozen guys out in the busy playing with guns and molotov cocktails, inspiring a previously non-revolutionary population into wider revolt.

    How is Northern Ireland a valid comparison with NZ?

    even the waco one is a poor example.

    Yeah, there's not even any weirdo religious cults that I could think of that have gone on modern western uprisings. I was finding a best fit. Manson maybe? Still didn't go anywhere, he was reviled by everyone, including the left that he supposedly came from.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    That said, I don't like the idea of armed militias roaming around in the forests, whether or not it's about protecting cash crops.

    They could get up to mischief just in the forest, let alone any grandiose plans of whacking high level targets. A country of laws doesn't allow it.

    If they threatened two kids out hunting, then I think that's police involvement right there.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I think just seeing a guy wearing a balaclava and carrying an assault rifle warrants a call to the cops, and justifies them checking it out. Let alone if they actually threatened anyone.

    The most likely mischief for such a totally unaccountable group armed up and training like this is for some serious gangster in their midst to decide that organized crime really is more profitable than revolution. If they can convince even a few of their already pretty whacky buddies that they need more funds for their revolution then you're looking at bank robberies, kidnappings, and standover extortions at the very least.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    "a guy wearing a balaclava and carrying an assault rifle warrants a call to the cops"

    That is every duck hunter I've ever seen.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    Yeah, and every duck hunter i know uses an AK47...

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    That is every duck hunter I've ever seen.

    Are they worried the ducks might be able to pick them out of a lineup?

    Sounds like an argument against duck hunting. At least with assault rifles. Hardly sounds 'sporting' to me, a lot more like fishing with grenades.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    assault rifles is a bit of a quibble really.

    Shot guns are well suited to "room clearing" and urban warfare.

    Most weapons are semi automatic. Just means you don't need to cock the weapon after each shot.

    Duck tastes like lizard .. yuck.

    Artillary used to fire into the sea from Birdlings flat (Sth of Banks Pen) they stopped due to fishing boats following too close to the fall of shot as they picked up all of the stunned mullet.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

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